What Is A Bigot, And How Does It Apply To The Subject At Hand

What Is A Bigot, And How Does It Apply To The Subject At Hand magnify

In the time that I have been visiting Islamist/Jihadist websites, I have learned that they are tried and true bigots. A bigot is defined as a prejudiced person, who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. I’m sure they are a sour-puss too.

I can’t think of a definition better than bigot for how they act, live and talk. You should be able to see that in just the last few posts I’ve made. We have also heard the word fascist, when describing radical Islam. That is defined as:Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, authoritarianism, statism, militarism, corporatism, populism, totalitarianism, anticommunism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism. Racism is not a requirement of Fascism.  ((they don’t have a state yet, but they are working on it)) ((from wikipedia)) I gotta say, I’m opposed to liberalism too. Looks right to me, I don’t know how much more authoritative and anti-liberal the Taliban could be, do you. The goal is the same as Hitler, to conquer the world, and set up a Taliban style government.OK, time for the bait and switch,… sorry.

There is another type of “radical” out there. No they aren’t blowing things up or anything even close to that. But they fit the same definition of bigot. Ever hear of the word, Islamophobia?? Might as well just say bigot.

People who are stricken with the illness, Islamophobia, believe that all Muslims are either terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. This entry is to talk about that.

I don’t care what country you live in, there are a great many people in your country that have no clue what is going on in the world. They are too busy with this or that to even pay attention to local elections. Maybe they get all their information about the world from one source, or no source. Maybe they are political, and believe whatever the leaders of their political party say. No matter if there is any truth to it. The bottom line is there are a lot of uninformed people out there. There are a ton in America, and we are at war.

I’m sure that most of you are shaking your heads up and down right now. The point is, nobody knows everything, about everything. The Islamophobe, however, thinks he or she does. They believe that EVERY Muslim, knows exactly what the terrorist want and they support it. Sounds kind of silly doesn’t it??

Most of you/us, have no clue what our own wife/husband/children want. When we live beside them everyday, all day. But the Islamophobic individual,….he is all seeing, all knowing, just ask them. They will give you the 411, (that’s information in case you didn’t know ) He knows what every Muslim on the face of the planet is thinking, how they live, how they want us to live…One billion people, he has the lowdown on them all. And no matter how many times you try and show them the truth, the Islamophobe will not listen.

Woooo better watch out, somebody that has that kind of brain power can kill you with just a look . Too bad, they don’t take that power and look at themselves in the mirror.

Here’s the deal, terrorists are bad, we don’t like them, we don’t want them around. But to think that a billion Muslims all agree with terrorist ideology is ridiculous . Some people have a hard time remembering what day it is , but you want me to believe they know what the terrorist want and approve.

I believe it is wrong that some Islamic countries, mistreat people of other faiths. Its hypocritical and wrong. And I have pointed out time and again, that it would be just as wrong if we did it to them, I may have been sarcastic, but I was trying to prove a point, (and be a little bit funny).

You tell me, do you think Muslim women want to wear burka’s?? Or ride around in the trunk of a car?? Or not send their little girls to school?? Do you think they don’t want their kids to be able to fly a kite?? NO t.v.. NO music of any kind. NO ankles showing at anytime. NO women out in the street except for certain things. NO computers. NO free will. NO fun or games. The weekly entertainment is the be-headings and dismembering of various criminals and perceived criminals. Because if the terrorists get their way, that is what will happen.  What a life.

I can see them now, waiting for that magical moment when their life ceases to be their own. OH YEAH, PARTY TIME , oh wait....can’t do that can we.

The Islamophobe, is a bigot, same as the Jihadist.  They are narrow minded, intolerant bottom feeders. If you find yourself falling into the trap of becoming an Islamophobe, find some Muslim guys or gals and make them a friend. You might learn something, and you also might, get rid of some of the hatred that caused you to delve into being an Islamophobe, in the first place.

If you are a Jihadist, make yourself some Christian friends. You also might learn something. The bottom line is, hatred will wear you out and cause you to age. What is the point, hate only hurts you. The people you hate could care less about what you think. And remember, there is a difference between Muslims and terrorist Jihadist. But there is not much difference between the terrorist Jihadist and the Islamophobe.

In the coming posts, I will expound more on this subject.  I will show some comments from around the Internet, and I will prove that not all Muslims are terrorists or believe in the terrorists ideology.  I really don’t know if it will do any good to the people out there who already have their mind made up..…but I hope, that those of you who are not sure, will see the terrorists for what they are, and the general Muslim, for what they aren’t.

As you have heard me say in previous posts and comments, maybe you think me naive, but I still believe in the goodness that is inherent in people,  irregardless of what religion they are in.  Some of you may disagree, that’s OK, but don’t find yourself in the position of the bigot….quite frankly nobody likes a person like that except other bigots.  What a lonely, restrictive, life to live.  You would have a hard time convincing me that you are any different than the radicals you hate.  

Advertisements

380 Responses to “What Is A Bigot, And How Does It Apply To The Subject At Hand”

  1. salahudin Says:

    nice balanced post! 🙂

  2. Eagle Says:

    😀 thanks

  3. Twana Says:

    Thanks Eagle – I needed to read this to remind me not all muslims want to kill us and they themselves don’t want to be under the taliban rule either. Thanks for confronting this mind-set.

  4. Eagle Says:

    No doubt we all need to remember this, including myself. 😀

  5. Elric66 Says:

    Hi everyone. I judge Islam by the Qur’an, the hadiths and the teachings of Mo.

  6. Elric66 Says:

    Is that bigoted?

  7. Eagle Says:

    No websites here Elric, just so you know, I will approve some of your comments so others have a chance to answer you, but I will not allow a bunch of websites being posted on my blog.

    The same goes for this blog, its mine.

  8. Elric66 Says:

    You didnt answer if its bigoted to judge Islam by its Qur’an, hadiths and the teachings of Mo.

  9. Elric66 Says:

    So you tell me, IF they are so righteous, why erase my comment?? That question goes out to the radicals as well.

    Your own words

  10. Eagle Says:

    Also, instead of posting a dozen small comments, please condense them into a couple long ones.

  11. Elric66 Says:

    LOL Still dodging that simple question?

    I judge Islam by the Qur’an, the hadiths and the teachings of Mo.

    Is it bigoted?

  12. Eagle Says:

    You know why I erased your comments, I have explained that to you for a month now. You just refuse to listen. But for the benefit of those who haven’t seen my other blog…

    Elric’s comments are erased because he is a bigot, just like the above post. He never has anything nice to say about Islam, or Muslims. He harasses any Muslim that comments on my blog. He will name call to any person who does not believe the way he does whether they are Muslim or not.

    I am a Christian and try to carry myself as one. I don’t want anyone to disparage any religion, regardless as to who you worship, or if you worship. Simple rules that Elric has a hard time following.

  13. Eagle Says:

    One more thing Elric, I am trying to work on my next blog entry, so if you can give it a rest, till tomorrow, it will be appreciated.

  14. Elric66 Says:

    Still cant answer that one question? Why not Eagle? Its simple enough.

    You know slandering isnt very Christian.

    As for my question, if its just too tough to answer, just say so.

  15. Elric66 Says:

    Define harass. Because I contradict of what they say by quotes from the Qur’an? Because I dare ask a Pali if she voted for Hamas? Imagine that, Im a bigot for quoting the Qur’an.

  16. Elric66 Says:

    Maybe they erased your comments because they view you as a bigot. 🙂

  17. Eagle Says:

    I have answered that question plenty of times in the past, but you never read what I have to say. You spam my blog with hate speech on a regular basis. On Sat alone you spammed my blog with 120 posts. Then you insult me, and then you want me to answer your questions.

    Right, I’ll get right on that.

  18. Elric66 Says:

    You never answered it. Oh wow now its hate speech. LOL

    Do you even read what you write?

    Thanks for confirming the Qur’an is hate speech. Maybe there is hope for you.

  19. Eagle Says:

    Whats the matter Elric, don’t you have anything better to do then spam my blogs. Don’t you have a life?? I don’t need your “help”, I don’t want your “help”. I would never ever want to be or think like you do.

    It’s a sad life you must lead when you spend an entire day posting comments on a blog that will erase every one of them.

    Starting at 5:18 in the morning and working till late in the evening, for what?? Have you ever been accused of stalking before?? I can see you would make a great one.

    I’ve met people like you before, not someone I would ever want as a friend.

    You are a bigot, the only reason I am leaving your comments up here is so others can see what a bigot is. It can’t get any more plain.

  20. Elric66 Says:

    Hmmm you didnt answer the question.

    Care to give “examples” of my hate speech?

  21. Eagle Says:

    Already have, plenty of times but again, for those who don’t know.

    Your use of insulting remarks such as, Palis…no different when you say it, than if you called a black person, blackie

    Your use of, Mo, and Mo-bomb-ed are only being used to insult.

    And Saturday you stooped to an all time low, by refering to Allah as a pig.

    That is why you are erased on my blog, that is what I consider hate speech. You can’t respect me and my wishes on my blog, even after a month of pleading with you.

    So what have I done, I’ve erased your comments, and just removed you from my friends list, next, I will report you to 360, if you continue to harass me on my blog. You have been told to go away, that I don’t want your comments but you don’t listen.

    The funny thing is, no one has asked me to allow your comments or wants to see them. But I have recieved plenty of complaints about you in general.

    What do you think, maybe yahoo will see you for what you are, a stalker, when they see 120 comments in one day?? I strongly suggest you stay off my 360 blog or I will report you. It has come to that. You should be so proud of yourself 😐

  22. Eagle Says:

    OH and lets not forget your other favorite comment, “the ‘magical’ moderate Muslim” which shows your bigotry in that one phrase.

  23. Elric66 Says:

    That was Allah is a sexist pig and it was a reference to him saying that a woman is worth half a man. Trying to mislead everyone Eagle?

    Palis is equal to blackie? Where did you hear that from? Same thing with Mo, where did you hearb that from.

    But you are right, I have no repsect for Mo. He was a war monger, a pedophile, an oppressor of non Muslims etc. But I am suppose to show him respect? Why?

    Oh yeah the mysterious commplaints? Where are they? Havent seen them on your yahoo blog? Why is that?

  24. Elric66 Says:

    As for the magical moderate Muslim. They dont exist. The only way a Muslim is moderate is if they arent true to the Qur’an, hadiths and teachings of Mo. Or if they leave Islam under threat of death. Funny isnt it. The only hope we have for Muslims is if they stray away from Islam. Interesting isnt it?

  25. Elric66 Says:

    Interesting that you get more upset over the term Pali than the rockets that fell on an Israeli school yesterday. Did you ask your Pali friend if she voted for Hamas. Isnt that something you would like to know?

  26. Eagle Says:

    The bottom line is you have no respect for anybody who thinks differently than you. You are nothing but a sad pathedic individual, who, unless you are careful will find yourself growing old alone.

    So because I didn’t post on my blog the emails or names of those people who complained, what, are you calling me a liar??

  27. Elric66 Says:

    I asked why they didnt complain on your blog.

  28. Elric66 Says:

    You sure mislead alot, dont you?

  29. Eagle Says:

    Don’t know, I can only tell you that I received email complaints.

  30. Elric66 Says:

    How very convienant for you Eagle.

  31. Eagle Says:

    You sure insult a lot don’t you. You are lucky I let you comment at all after all the insults you have thrown my way.

  32. Elric66 Says:

    The bottom line is you have no respect for anybody who thinks differently than you. You are nothing but a sad pathedic individual, who, unless you are careful will find yourself growing old alone.

    Looks who is talking.

  33. Eagle Says:

    There you go again, calling me a liar

  34. Eagle Says:

    The only reason I am letting you comment here is so others can see for themselves what I am talking about when I refer to Islamophobia and bigotry.

  35. Elric66 Says:

    Good for you. They also see you mislead them in what I say.

    Islamophobia. LOL I love that term

    You dont even have the courage to say if the Qur’an is bigoted or not.

  36. Eagle Says:

    The bottom line is, you are done commenting on my other blog. Act like a jerk here, and you will be blocked here as well.

    I can’t understand why you would want to waste your time commenting when you know they will be erased. Even today I asked you to give me a break because I was working on my next post, but you can’t do that either.

  37. Elric66 Says:

    Cant handle the truth Eagle?

  38. Eagle Says:

    Can’t handle a jerk. You disrespect me daily. You spend every free moment you have on my blog, which in itself is weird. You don’t listen or respect anything I have to say. I dare say you even read my posts and comments. You are so stuck in your ways, I don’t know what could come in between. Sad Sad Sad

    You come to my blog because no one came to yours. You claim that you want to inform, but I am doing that already. I’m just not doing it the way you want. Too bad… Don’t have to and won’t.

    Like I said, its MY blog, don’t like it, leave. Keep up being a jerk and you will be barred from commenting here as well.

  39. Eagle Says:

    Now, I’m busy, so find someone else to harass.

  40. Elric66 Says:

    You are the one attacking me. You should practice what you preach.

    I do read your posts and comments. Thats why I ask you questions about them. You dodge them.

  41. Elric66 Says:

    What are you informing on? You said yourself you dont know what Islam is all about. But for some reason you thiunk you know what radical Islam is. I asked you what the difference is. Your silence is deafening.

  42. Eagle Says:

    Whatever, you heard me. You are banned from commenting on my blog on 360. Act like a jerk here, and the same thing will apply.

  43. Elric66 Says:

    Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. All you wanted here was to bash me. Otherwise you would allow my point to be viewed.

  44. Elric66 Says:

    Whats the difference between Islam and radical Islam. Im just a bigot and want to learn. Can you teach me?

  45. Eagle Says:

    Well since I am so hard on you, maybe you should just leave and find someone else out there that believes the way you do.

    That’s what any normal person would do.

  46. Elric66 Says:

    Did you ask your Pali friend if she voted for Hamas?

  47. Eagle Says:

    I can show you the difference between radical Islam and a bigot.

    Not much.

  48. Elric66 Says:

    Dodging again? LOL

    You dont know do you?

  49. Elric66 Says:

    See what I mean folks. He says he is teaching you but he cant answer that simple question. All he has is insults. 🙂

  50. Eagle Says:

    You keep using the term pali why is that, can’t you spell Palestinian??

  51. Eagle Says:

    I will be showing the difference in the coming days, if you will leave me alone long enough for me to write it.

  52. Elric66 Says:

    Dodging again?

    No such thing as a Palestinain. They are just Arabs used as a proxy in their war with Israel.

    So did you ask her?

  53. Elric66 Says:

    Are you going to say if Mo was a radical Muslim or a moderate?

  54. Eagle Says:

    Are you ready to have your comments erased here too?? You have been told what is not allowed, the same applies here.

  55. Elric66 Says:

    I am sorry I am not showing enough respect to a man that spread his “religion” by sword, enslaved women and children, was a pedophile, and chased Christianity out of the Middle East. Small failing of mine, sorry.

  56. Eagle Says:

    I will not be insulted by some piss ant, sitting around the house in his underware with nothing better to do then spam my blog.

    You never listen, you disrespect me at every turn. You seem obsessed with my blog. Why don’t you go find someone else to harass. Why me?

    Get a life Elric, no one cares what you have to say, least of which me.

  57. Eagle Says:

    Go disrespect him somewhere else

  58. Elric66 Says:

    How did I insult you?

  59. Eagle Says:

    We have been all over that as well.

    I know you are lonely, but I am not here to be your personal buddy. Maybe you wouldn’t be so lonely if you weren’t such a jerk.

    Any chance you had of being my friend you threw right out the window with your constant disrespect of my feelings.

  60. Elric66 Says:

    Are you sure your name isnt dodger?

  61. Elric66 Says:

    If I oppose comunism, am I a bigot?

  62. Twana Says:

    Please let us never have to read another comment by Elric66. He is just looking for a verbal fight – especially since he can hide behind his username. I’ve noticed these kind of people who come to these sites only for the purpose of disruption and meanness, they are arrogant and hateful with no accountability. Who is this person? Will he identify himself without the user name?

  63. Elric66 Says:

    Couldnt deny anything I wrote Twana? Why am I surprised you dont like what I say about Islam?

  64. Elric66 Says:

    Oh and Eagle. You wrote to me on your yahoo site that you didnt care if Islam was a bigoted “religion” or not. Why are you so concerned that you think Im a bigot but could care less if 1.3 billion follow a bigoted religion? Kinda strange, dont you think?

  65. Elric66 Says:

    Oh and 5 Christians in Algeria were sentenced for preaching Christianity. Are you going to call Algeria a bigoted nation?

  66. Reality Check Says:

    Hey Eagle…stop living in cloud cuckoo land and get a reality check. There may be peaceful muslims, but you rarely hear a peep from them….no protests when their brotheren commit a henious act, instead you see the mainstream muslims dancing for joy on the streets. Just turn on the news and and maybe…just maybe, you may get an idea of what’s really happening…wherever there is a terrorist attack ( and plenty of them everyday )…muslims are behind it. Wake up mate. Eagles are supposed to be sharp eyed…methinks you may be a blind one!!!!

  67. Eagle Says:

    Elric,
    didn’t take long for you to get a complaint here did it.

    Reality Check,
    Maybe, just maybe you might learn something yourself, stop with the all Muslims all bad. Watch this blog and I will prove it to you. Yes there are bad terrorists out there, no its not a billion Muslims. Did you read anything but this post?

    I understand Jihadist Muslims, I’ve met a lot of Muslims their views are as wide as Christianity. They don’t all worship the same way. They don’t all believe the same way. The main reason I started this series on Islamophobia is because there are too many people who don’t understand that. Elric is one of those people and the main reason I started this series.

  68. Eagle Says:

    Elric,
    What I said was, I couldn’t do anything about bigots in other places, but I could do something on my blog.

    And why did I have to do that Elric…You can never take no for an answer. You have no respect for me or anybody else who thinks differently than you.

  69. Eagle Says:

    Twana,

    No worries, if he spams this website the way he did my other one I will ban him from here as well. The only reason I left his hateful comments up is so others can see what I am talking about when I wrote this post.

  70. catstrangler101 Says:

    Hi Eagle,

    First time on your blog so I’ll try to keep to the point. I disagree with the term Islamophobia / Islamophobe because it implies that the person concerned has an irrational fear about Islam and Muslims. However when one sees what Muslims are perpetrating daily around the globe, slaughtering dozens of non-Muslims daily in the name of Islam, then it is perfectly rational to be concerned, if not actually fearful. That is not bigoted, or Islamophobic, or racist. That is not to say that all Muslims are terrorists, of course they are not. But most terrorist acts around the world today are committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. And if we could tell the difference between a potentially violent jihadist who would cheerfully slaughter all us Infidels and an ordinary Muslim who simply wants to mind his own business and live a peaceful life, then nobody would be happier than I. But we can’t. And therein lies the problem. We know that because of Islam and its teachings, many Muslims are predisposed to violence against us Infidels and that the ultimate goal of Islam is to convert, subjugate or kill all Infidels throughout the world until the whole world comes under Islamic rule. So why should we treat Muslims as if they were the same as the rest of us? Until such time that Muslims in the West publicly renounce their intentions to impose Sharia on the rest of us, publicly denounce the jihadists in their midst, publicly announce their intention to root out terrorism by co-operating wholeheartedly with the authorities, publicly repudiate teaching violent jihad against the Infidel in every mosque and madrassa, we have every right to defend ourselves against Islam, which after all, has declared war on the West. This means we may have to start treating Muslims in the West very differently compared to what we have been doing up to now. And to say so is not to be bigoted, is not to be Islamophobic, is not to be racist, but only common sense if we want to save Western culture and Western civilisation. Now I don’t know about you, but I think that our culture and our civilisation is worth saving. It may not be perfect, but it’s a darn sight better than anything Islam has to offer. Islamophobic? Nah. Informed? You bet.

  71. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Aren’t you a bigot for not tolerating their intolerance? After all, intolerance of the unbeliever is rooted in their religion.

  72. urban Says:

    Eagle, do you know what the suffix phobia means?
    It means an illogical or irrational fear.
    Islam requires it’s followers to
    1) kill infidels
    2) convert infidels
    3) enslave infidels
    Option 4 doesn’t exist
    It is not illogical or irrational to fear being killed converted or enslaved so the word islamophobia should not exist.
    Whilst I admire your attempts to be fair minded, perhaps you should find out a little about the belief system you defend, it’s all in the koran, which muslims believe is the literal word of allah.
    And before you reply, I do not think that all people who happen to be born into islam want to kill, convert or enslave me (and you also), but all true muslims do, and will resort to any means at their disposal to spread this evil belief system be it immigration, terrorism or out breeding the locals.

  73. urban Says:

    Elric66,
    I’d bet most of them were on welfare and the response from their friends and families will be………
    I can’t believe it, they were good boys, devout muslims, never in any trouble….
    That’s it. They were devout muslims, following the example of their prophet.

  74. Eagle Says:

    Elric,

    What did I say about all the small comments. Put your comments on one, or don’t comment at all.

  75. Elric66 Says:

    Anything to avoid debate huh Eagle?

    As you can see folks. Those that dont like my comments never say they arent true, they just say its hate speech and Im a bigot.

    I commented that Algeria convicted 5 Chrisitians for preaching. I askd Eagle if Algeria is a bigoted hateful country after he didnt respond the first time. No response, he just deleted my comment.

    I asked both Eagle and Twana to quote a comment of mine thats concidered hate speech. No response, just a deleted comment.

    Its easy for Eagle and Twana to lable people but they cant actually address my comments.

    And I told Eagle that reality Check didnt say all Muslims are bad. Eagle is an expert at disinformation. He of course deleted that comment as well.

    Does this meet your criteria as a long enough comment oh mighty delete Master? And will you actually respond other than deleting? 🙂

  76. Eagle Says:

    For anyone wanting to know my definition of a Islamophobe, read the new post. Now I am off. Will be back later this afternoon.

    Elric,
    I will deal with your comments when I get back, in the mean time…don’t spam my blog or it will all be erased.

  77. drk Says:

    Funny all this – because I like most Moslems but loath Islamic Fundamentalism – but there again I like most Christians and hate Christian Fundamentalism, like most Hindus but hate Hindu Fundamentalism etc etc. I think you get the picture.

    The point is that not everyone who is opposed to the introduction of Fundamentalist (Wahhabi, Salafist etc) strains of Islam into the west are “Islamaphobic” – just that we want to preserve the best of our western culture and not return to any version of “Religious Fundamentalism”. Period.

  78. in2thefray Says:

    “The Islamophobe, is a bigot, same as the Jihadist. They are narrow minded, intolerant bottom feeders. If you find yourself falling into the trap of becoming an Islamophobe, find some Muslim guys or gals and make them a friend. You might learn something, and you also might, get rid of some of the hatred that caused you to delve into being an Islamophobe, in the first place.

    If you are a Jihadist, make yourself some Christian friends. You also might learn something. The bottom line is, hatred will wear you out and cause you to age. What is the point, hate only hurts you. The people you hate could care less about what you think. And remember, there is a difference between Muslims and terrorist Jihadist. But there is not much difference between the terrorist Jihadist and the Islamophobe.” Good point.

  79. Elric66 Says:

    Urban,

    Didnt you know, its poverty that drives these poor Muslims into blowing up. Nevermind that jihadists tend to come from more privlidged backgrounds. Just look that the jihad doctors in the UK for example. The only thing they all have in common is that they read the Qur’an.

    Jimmy,

    Please dont use logic, it will not be tolerated here. 🙂

  80. salahudin Says:

    Elric, let me guess… you believe all republicans are assholes because the ones in charge these days are assholes too… right?

    never mind the countless who aren’t… just like the millions of muslim doctors who probably saved one of your ancestors lives.. but just because FOUR TERRORISTS had a common profession, you can’t help but express your bigotry in that way.

    Why don’t you go workout at a gym and take your aggression and frustration out there, instead of here because some Muslim girl probably rejected your advances.

  81. Eagle Says:

    salahudin,
    great point

    intothefray,
    thank you

    drk,
    try reading the most recent post and you will see what I call an Islamophobe

  82. Eagle Says:

    Elric,

    Your lucky I allow anything from you. The people at this blog may not know what kind of jerk you are, but I do!! I erased your comments because you posted 6 when you could have posted one. The only reason I am letting you comment is as I said before, to show people why I wrote about bigots in the first place.

    You were the main motivation for the topic.

    I have answered and answered your questions even went down a pointed numbered list. And you continue to repeat yourself.

    Your a jerk, a bully and a ass.

    Go away Elric, your not wanted here. Go write your own blog. I have nothing else to say to you but go away. You have disrespected me for the last time. I have only got complaints as far as you are concerned. I plead with you for a month to respect my wishes. To look at what I was trying to do. You couldn’t do that, so now I can’t be bothered with you anymore.

    Whatever positive points you may have had, were far outweighed by the bad. You still seem to think I owe you something. I don’t owe you anything, and will give you nothing from now on. So don’t waste your time on my blog.

    I have spent so much time dealing with you that I haven’t put up near the posts I could have. I’ve said it all before, and I won’t be saying it anymore.

    Goodbye Elric

  83. Eagle Says:

    salahudin,

    I know that you were a religious “true” Muslim, you followed the Quran closely. Please respond to Urbans comment:

    “I do not think that all people who happen to be born into islam want to kill, convert or enslave me (and you also), but all true muslims do, and will resort to any means at their disposal to spread this evil belief system be it immigration, terrorism or out breeding the locals.”

  84. Eagle Says:

    Catstrangler101,

    Maybe you should read more of my blog than one entry. Another thing, you seem to think that we should throw out the window our Constitution. Read part 2 of this post and you will get a better idea of what I am saying. Also read some of my other posts and you will see what I believe.

    There are more blacks in prison then whites, should we throw the rest in there to reduce crime?? It wasn’t that long ago when blacks couldn’t drink from the same water fountian, why was that?? Were we wrong about civil rights, should we go back to the 50’s??

    What about putting Japanese Americans in concentration camps during WW2, was that right in your eyes?? Is that what you think we should do now??

    America is the greatest nation in the world as far as I am concerned. It’s that way because of our freedoms. We have freedom of religion, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, the right to bear arms. Which rights do you think we should do away with??

    When you start down that path, it is a slippery slope. Did you know that in many country’s students were told what they would go to college for?? Thank God we don’t have that kind of thing here. We all come into this free to decide what we want to do with our lives. Everyone should be free.

    You want to break the law, you go to jail. You want to study hard, you can be whatever you want to be. You can study hard, work hard, and become rich. How many places can say that??

    Some people have huge issues with phone calls from known terrorists, made to Americans, being listened to without a warrant. I don’t, but I would take issue with curtailing peoples rights just because they are Muslim. I think our fighting men and women would take issue with that as well. After all, they fight and die for the sake of freedom.

    I want to see all terrorists dead or behind bars, possibly for the rest of their lives. But when you start singling out people solely because of race or religion, where does it stop?? Maybe we should ban all religion, do you think that would be a good idea?? There are some who think so.

    How about we ban brown eyes? Or size 10 feet? Sounds silly when you put it that way. There are a lot of Muslims in America, should we deport them?? What if they were born here, where should we send them??

    I hear a lot of complaint about how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim lands, and I agree its wrong. But should we stoop that low??

    We are Americans, we give more each year to charity that any other country. If it wasn’t for America, a lot of people would be speaking German right now.

    Our people have made great doctors, inventors, and astronauts. We have contributed to all kinds of things that help people worldwide. We have a black history month that shows what blacks have contributed to America. Maybe we need one for Muslims.

    THAT is the kind of people we are. I would hate to see that changed, whether it be by terrorists or out of our fear of terrorists.

  85. european woman Says:

    I really liked this article but I have to say that I am an Islamophobe, and yet I have nothing against muslim people, not even the terrorists, I just hate the religion of Islam. It´s history, the way it maked people behave, everything. I think it´s terrible how Islam is taking over Europe and how “blue-eyed” the europeans are to it. I have read the holy book and the ahadiths and I can find nothing good about this religion. I sincerely hope that moderate muslims will start to research this devilish religion and then stop endorcing it. I don´t think you endorse terrorists but you are endorsing the slavery of women, FGM, non-freedom of speech etc. All these things are condoned in your religions books. You can´t deny it and you will have to make a choice one day, because the terrorists are real, please think about this before it´s to late. The way most muslims treat women is a blight on humanity. Please think.

  86. salahudin Says:

    Elric i’ll answer and i’ll go beyond that and ask you to answer a question without dodging and deflecting, as i’m sure you are wont to do. 😛

    The UK Islamists (not Muslims) are an estranged lot that is vying for political power. They are extremists and their interpretation of Islam is the same as Pat Robertson’s of Christianity. “This is a Christian Nation”… Christian nation my foot!

    The UK Muslims who teach their children NOT to blow themselves up though, are just.. what? regular people i guess. I don’t see what YOUR point is here. lol…

    I can also use my BRAIN to understand that in these days of Islamic extremism, Muslim kids are being taught against extremism… only a TRUE islamophobe would find that fucked up.

    It’s like looking at parents with suspicion if they teach their kids not to do drugs. “If Christianity is truly a moral religion, why do they even have to TEACH that!???”

    You made a pathetic point… congratulations. Bring something more concrete on next time.

    “I dont expect an answer, all you do is dodge and deflect. Of course by doing that, you just confirm what I say.”

    ? This is the first time we’ve met… how the hell are you making that judgement? oh wait… you’re an islamophobe.. i forgot people like you come from some backwater cowboy town where you pass judgments like drawing your six iron.

  87. urban Says:

    in2thefray suggests that jihadists should make friends with Christians. Nice thought, but the koran expressley forbids that.As the koran was dictated by allah , that suggestion is a bit of a no no. However allah did say “kill the unbeliever wherever you find them”
    in2the fray also says there is little difference between jihadist terrorists and islamophobes.
    Jihadi terrorists kill people to advance islam and please allah, whilst islamophobes ( an oxymoron if I ever saw one) ,hate muslims, according to liberals and muslims.
    For your information, I do not hate muslims, actually I feel sorry for them. I hate Islam, as I hate nazism.
    The trouble with liberals is that because they have met, and liked, a few muslims, they assume islam is ok.
    What they should do perhaps is try and find out a little bit more about islam and its founder.
    Any true muslim will tell you that mohammad was the most perfect human being that ever lived, and that his example should be emulated.
    He was,in fact, a warlord. He used allah to justify his actions as he waged war, robbing, raping and killing his way across the arabian peninsular. In his 50’s he “married a 6 year old child, after one battle he beheadded about 700 prisioners of war, and gave the wives and children of his enemies to his cut throats as war booty.
    Islam is the excuse for one madman’s behaviour, it is not, nor never has been a religion of peace. And, before anybody spouts out “islam means peace” it doesn’t. It means submission

  88. Eagle Says:

    european woman,

    So far it appears that Muslim women don’t have a problem with it. IE: The majority of european countries are free. Women in those countries can decide how they want to live and dress.

    The problem is wanting to push your/mine/anyones, religion on anyone else. Whats that old saying, “You rights end where mine begin” I agree.

    The reason I wrote this entry was because so many people lump all Muslims in the same basket. And its really not fair or right. Being prejudicial against anyone because of race, color, religion, etc… Is wrong. Jihadist are prejudicial against anyone who doesn’t believe the way they do.

    I am prejudical against criminals, and/or terrorists. But not towards Islam as a whole.

    I have Muslim friends they don’t all think alike, or dress alike, or worship alike, or lead their personal lives alike.

    I have Christian friends and the same applies. That is the point I am trying to make.

  89. Eagle Says:

    european woman,

    Please read the new post, it will give you an idea of what I am talking about

  90. salahudin Says:

    aw heck what happened to elric’s post to which i replied?

    anyways, urban, islam is not fascistic the way nazism was.

    a lot of modern muslims will tell you that muhammad was a “perfect being” but only in the context of that time and that his way of doing things has to be evaluated in the context of the present day and not just blindly obeyed.

    your impression is about islamists and you’re confusing them with regular, modern muslims.

  91. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    Are you saying it was OK to have sex with a 9 year old girl?
    Or was it OK to behead 700 prisioners of war and treat their wives and children as sexual playthings? There are no excuses for that sort of behaviour,except perhaps that the perp was a raving lunatic with a serious personality disorder

  92. urban Says:

    Just re-read Salahudin’s earlier comment…..
    The UK muslims who teach their children not to blow themselves up are regular people.
    Ha Ha!!!!
    Don’t we all say to our kids
    “have a nice day at school, be careful crossing the road, don’t talk to any strangers, and whatever you do DON’T BLOW YOURSELVES UP”
    Eagle, you seem a nice person, you describe yourself as a pepertual student, so learn about islam. There is no moderate form of islam, its like being slightly pregnant, or a Jew loving nazi

  93. Eagle Says:

    urban,

    I know there is a difference between radical Jihadist and Islam. Hmmm its funny you should mention a Jew loving nazi. Ever watch “Shindlers List”??

    Maybe you could learn something as well. But don’t act like, because I don’t believe all Muslims are terrorists or believe in the terrorist ideology…that I am uninformed.

  94. Eagle Says:

    What do you think urban, should parents who live in the “getto” not teach their kids about staying out of gangs??

    Its the same difference. When teaching your kids, you have to be aware of where you live, what is surrounding you, and what influence you don’t want your kid to fall pray too.

  95. salahudin Says:

    Urban: can’t you tell what i’m saying? *I* think it made it pretty clear and no one in their right mind can interpret what I said to mean it’s okay to have sex with a 9 year old girl. 😛

    as for mass beheadings and all that: of course it isn’t justified.

    but what ARE you implying? that you call all this “islam” ??? you must be joking.

    you can look at the hadith and bring up verses that talk about muhammad’s personal life, but the scientific method dictates we be fair and put everything in context, right? so let’s put this in context:

    obviously there are contradictory hadith against the 9 year old one etc.

    here’s a little primer for you on the hadith:

    these were orally transferred from one person to another and the earliest hadith that were written down were 200 years after the death of muhammad. So they aren’t very reliable. Which explains why there are SOOO many absolutely insane hadith like the one about monkeys stoning a she-monkey because of adultery. lol.

    my point is that because of these contradictions, you can pretty much pick and choose whatever you want that best suits your personality. it’s like with christians: not all christians accept everything christianity teaches. some just believe in the bible, without its history. some don’t believe it’s ALL the word of god. some just believe it’s okay to simply follow the 10 commandments. others only believe in jesus christ as their savior.

    now, you may islam isn’t the same and that you can’t pick and choose… but i can show you many learned islamic scholars… some even from a traditional background but now have become PROGRESSIVE… even ex-terrorists who repent their ways and have become reformist muslims.

    So i guess what i’m trying to point out to you is that islam isn’t some narrowly defined religion. it’s pretty much like judaism and christianity.. it IS after all, an abrahamic religion. 😛

  96. Eagle Says:

    EXCELLENT salahudin!! 😀

  97. in2thefray Says:

    Urban my comments were quotes from Eagles post. I have had conversations with Muslims though ranging from the weather to religion. I don’t ask them to denounce their prophet and they respectfully lay off Christ. If it’s raining we tend to agree.
    Elric66 I imagine you’re gone but:
    “No such thing as a Palestinain. They are just Arabs used as a proxy in their war with Israel.”
    Palestine a reality and the proper root word to residents thereof no matter their faith.

  98. Eagle Says:

    Urban said,
    “Jihadi terrorists kill people to advance islam and please allah, whilst islamophobes ( an oxymoron if I ever saw one) ,hate muslims, according to liberals and muslims.”

    Urban,

    I want you to know one more thing about me, make that 2 more things…. I am a conservative, have been my whole life!! Even as a kid, I was a conservative. I am a Christian, have been since I was 16 years old. Though not always faithful since then.

  99. Tim Says:

    Hello, this is my first time on your website. I thought I might leave a few thoughts since you are kind enough to leave an open forum for this sort of thing.

    First, I think that feel that name calling inhibits communication. In the past, people called those who were different by names as a means of dehumanizing one another so it was easier to hate them. The “N” word as a derogatory word for Africans may be the most notorious, but every group seems to have their derogatory names that they call one another.

    To a lesser extent, your initial post on this blog uses name calling to alienate people who you seem to despise. Namely, you refer to them as Bigots or Islamaphobes. The former is clearly defined, whereas the latter is subjective and could be applied to anyone who appears critical to the teachings of Islam.

    It is perfectly commendable to dislike bigotry, but when you vent your wrath at people you consider to be bigots, you are in fact presenting yourself as a bigot. I am not saying this to attack you. I think that Eric66 is venting a lot of his anger that stems from his fear of terrorists toward you because you have an opinion he perceives to be complacent with his enemy.

    My point for this is that hating a behavior allows people to understand your point of view without being your enemy. You clearly feel strongly in your opinions here, and that is respectable. I would like to have an open discussion about the behaviors without attacking the people involved. In my opinion, this behavior is so pervasive in politics, talk radio and new analyst shows that we have felt that this is the way to resolve conflicts. Interestingly though, the exact opposite is more likely to occur. If you read this far, I thank you for your time.

    Sincerely,
    Tim

  100. urban Says:

    In2the fray,
    What derogartory things could your muslim friends possibly say about Christ?
    Eagle, of course it’s right to keep your kids on the straight and narrow, i was just trying to point out the absurdity of
    “and don’t blow yourselves up”
    the only way the nazis caused so much death and destruction was because the liberals and peacenicks didn’t stand up to them.
    Am I a bigot because I hate nazism?
    I would expect you to say “no”
    Here’s an analogy for you.
    suppose Hitler had climed off a Bavarian mountain clutching his draft copy of Mein Kamph. He then claimed that it was dictated to him by the the Angel Gabriel and it was the true word of God, and a number of people believed him and followed him.
    I’d still hate the idealogy, but I expect that would then qualify me as a bigot, would it not?
    In my opinion, islam was mohammed’s excuse for his behaviour and should be recognised as such.
    And I did see Schindler’s list (a long time ago) and although Schindler may well have been a member of the nazi party that doesn’t mean he was a good nazi or believed in the idealogy. After nazism became the dominant force in Germany it was probably a case of join up or die. Not unlike islam really.
    Turkey used to be the hub of Christianity, look what happened to them! Ask the 1.5 Christian Armenians slaughtered by the muslims in 1915 what they think about
    “no compulsion in religion” Also take a look at the sales figures for Mein Kamph in Turkey! Islam is an abomination, a blight on human history. Churchill nailed it, he claimed islam affects the human mind as rabies does to a dog’s mind.

  101. Tim Says:

    Hi Urban, did you read Prophet of Doom? There is a chapter dedicated to comparing Muhammad to Hitler and specifically comparing the Quran and other Islamic manuscripts to Mien Kamph.

    To Eagle, I understand your skepticism about this. Truly I do. Please try to understand that it is not Muslims that are hated, it is a philosophy that taught in certain parts the Qur’an.

    To illustrate the point, I will say that the terrorists who claim to be Muslim, such as Osama bin Laden, are often heard quoting from either the Qur’an or the Hadieth. Western Muslims will say that these terrorists are not Islamic and their message has nothing to do with Islam. However, what part of the Qur’an are being taught from when? In what way are those unIslamic if it comes from the Qur’an? Does bin Laden consider himself Islamic?

    I am not asking you to answer those questions, but I would like a forum where the Muslims who dismiss this as not part of Islam at least back it up by talking about the specifics of what the terrorists are saying, and demonstrating how that is not part of their religion. There should be people who have studied the Islamic writings to question and seek more genuine truth about the situation.

    Instead of that, anyone who poses the question, Is bin Laden telling the truth about Islam? is labeled a bigot or an islamaphobe. If they work in the press, there may even be retribution that goes well beyond words. People who are critical of Islam have often received death threats. Who are the death threats coming from? Peaceful Muslims?

    Sincerely,
    Tim

  102. urban Says:

    sorry, that should have been 1.5MILLION

  103. Eagle Says:

    Tim and anyone else,

    Since you all keep commenting on this one thread, am I to assume you haven’t read the others??

    When I say Islamophobe, I am referring to the people who think there are no moderate Muslims out there. Who think ALL Muslims are bad, who agree with Jihadist/Islamist. How many times do I need to make this point??

    The whole purpose of this series on bigots was aimed at Elric. He spent all day spamming my other blog with hateful, bigoted comments. He attacked every Muslim who commented on my blog. I spent a month pleading with him to be respectful of other people and me.

    Elric doesn’t think there are any moderate Muslims out there, he referred to them “magical” moderate Muslims because in his eyes they didn’t exist. These series of entries are to show that they do. It is really simple to understand if you will only open your mind.

    As you can see from my most recent post, there are Muslims that even support the state of Israel. I will be writing more on moderate Muslims and than I will get back to writing about radical Islam since that is the topic of my blog.

    I would like to encourage you to read more of my blog so you can get a better understanding of who I am and what I am trying to do. 😀

  104. urban Says:

    Tim,
    I have looked at the website, but not read the book (yet)
    What people need to understand is that Osama bin Laden is a good muslim and the peaceful ones are bad muslims.
    Obviously, most people have difficulty getting their heads around that because it goes against logic, that is until you put islam under the microscope and see it for what it really is. Fair minded people, like Eagle fall into that category, and try to divide islam into moderate islam and radical islam. I’ll come around to their way of thinking when they can show me how to moderately kill unbelievers wherever they find them.

  105. Eagle Says:

    Oh my, 1.5 billion Muslims that according to urban, are not “true” Muslims, because they are not out there blowing people up.

    I’m sorry you live in such a negative world. I still believe in the goodness of people, I’m sorry if you can’t understand that. I’m sure you find the Muslims that support the state of Israel, heretics. Did you read that post?? Did you visit that website?? Did you ever stop to think that maybe it is they, who are “true” Muslims??

    Try and open your mind.

  106. urban Says:

    Eagle, you really need to read the Koran.
    Any muslim that is not helping spread islam is not a true muslim. I know plenty of Christians that were baptised or Christened and yet never go to church. Nominally they are Christians, but they are not practicing Christians. Many of them are decent kind people, but you cannot call them practicing Christians.
    By the same token, there are millions of people who happen to be born into islam, maybe even go to the mosque but think the whole thing is a load of nonsense.
    What I am trying to say is that anyone that calls themselves a muslim, reads the koran, accepts that the koran is the true word of allah, can quite easily justify any action whatsoever if it furthers the cause of islam, which, by the way, is the total domination of the entire planet.
    Take a look at the muslim brotherhood project
    http://www.frontpagemag.com
    5/11/2006
    People just like you were mocking Winston Churchill in the 1930’s when he warned of the dangers of nazism.
    True muslims follow the koran, you really ought to read up on it before you defend an ideology (that wants you dead)

  107. Eagle Says:

    When viewing my blog stats, I see where all my current posters are coming from. I want to thank Elric for sending people too me.

    I have also noticed that the only thread most of you have read is this one. Maybe you should read more if you really want to know what I think. If you don’t it only means you are as closed minded as Elric, who was the main person that caused me to write on this subject. I much perfer to write on radical Islam.

    You point me to websites, like I don’t know what radical Islam is about, but when I try and show you that not all Muslims are radicals, you ignore it.

    I know that radical Islam is BAD, I know what their goal is. You don’t have to convince me of that fact. BUT, not all Muslims fall under that title. At one time salahudin was a religious Muslim. I don’t think he had intentions on blowing up the world for Islam.

    Christians go out as missonaries, around the world trying to lead people to Christianity. But they are not terrorists.

    Lumping all Muslims into the terrorist or supporters of terrorists, is like saying that because the KKK claimed to be Christians, all Christians think like the KKK. Or, since the Bible talked about having slaves, that we should still have slaves today. When we did have slaves, most of the slave holders were Christian. Does that mean we should do the same today??

    What about those Christians who have blown up a few abortion clinics. At least one killed a doctor. Do you think all Christians are terrorists because some Christians didn’t do the right thing?? We’ve also seen Christian Pastor’s murder, wifes, or even strangers…does that mean that all Christians do the same thing??

    Should we all be Amish?? They are Christian. Do all Christians dress and behave like the Amish??

    Read some more of my blog and maybe you will learn something. God forbid, an “idiot” like me should think different than you. And “idiot” was the exact word Elric used when describing me and my beliefs.

    What I am trying to point out, is all Muslims don’t follow the guidelines put down by the Sunni sect of terrorist Muslims. Even all Sunni’s don’t follow that line of behavior. I have only put up one link and story so far, showing this. 4 whole people have clicked on it. 1 has followed the link. So who exactly is wrong??

    “people like me”, people like me, who believe different than you…but I’m wrong and your right. When you won’t even look at my other posts….

  108. God Bless America Says:

    Boy…. this thing was exhausting to read through! I can just picture all of you in a boxing ring!!!!!

    Pam
    New York

  109. urban Says:

    Eagle, If a Christian shoots an abortion clinic doctor, he is going against the teachings of Christ.
    If a muslim saws off your head with a blunt knife, he is following the teachings of his religion.
    It’s as simple as that.
    And it really doesn’t matter how many peaceful muslims you have met, facts are facts.

  110. mort faucheur Says:

    The best source for what’s going on in contemporary NazIslam throughout the world is TheReligionofPeace.com It seems the Quran not only exhorts the pious Muslim to murder as many infidels as possible, but killing other Muslims is a booming business as well. Muslims are totally cool with all that death, one never hears of them condemning it; that sort of thing could get one killed. If they truly condemned terrorism, they would speak out publicly, but they don’t.

  111. Eagle Says:

    urban,

    As I have already said, I don’t know how many times…have you read anything in my blog besides this right here? Because when I look at my blog stats I can’t tell you have.

    Since you haven’t read anything else I have written, what makes you think you are some kind of scholar on what I think??

    Again the purpose of the current article is to point out that not all Muslims think like, or approve of, the terrorist ideology. If you can not understand that simple sentence, or the easy reading of my blog…well that’s your lost.

    If you read even the latest of my post you would see the name of a late Muslim who was on “Jihad Watch’s” board of directors, along with numerous other Muslims who denouce terrorism. Which is the purpose of this topic… to show that all Muslims do not think alike.

  112. Eagle Says:

    Mort,

    Read on, you will see Muslims who do denouce the acts of radicals. I was thinking that after this last post I could get back to blogging about the radicals themselves but I don’t know… It seems there are still people who still don’t get it.

    Maybe it is as a friend told me. They don’t read written.

  113. urban Says:

    Eagle,
    if muslims don’t like violence, they should leave islam. islam is violent.
    earlier, you brought up the subject of Schindler,as an example of a Jew loving nazi.
    do you think hitler would have considered him to be a good nazi? I expect he joined up when he realised that not to be a member of the party might have had an adverse effect on his business and may have shortened his lifespan had he spoken out against it.
    You didn’t answer my question regarding had hitler claimed God had instructed him to write Mein Kamph, and that nazism was a religion, not an idealogy, would I be a bigot if I then said “I think this religion of nazism is a violent ideology dreamed up by a raving lunatic to justify mad evil behaviour”

  114. salahudin Says:

    “if muslims don’t like violence, they should leave islam. islam is violent.”

    you just don’t get it and are afraid to broaden your mind and learn something: that your hate is unjustified.

    islam is not any more violent than say… judaism or christianity. and a lot more muslims interpret the quran in peaceful ways than the terrorists/islamists.

  115. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    please direct me to the hateful verses of the New Testament, and how many ways are there to interperate “kill the un-believer wherever you find them”
    Could it be a miss-print maybe, Kiss the ………..

  116. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    if you reply, I won’t be able to respond because I’m off to marry a 6 year old, start a war or two and maybe form a new religion, want to join? There’s 72 virgins in it for you, and 28 young boys!

  117. salahudin Says:

    uhm… urban… what did jesus say about the old testament?

    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    🙂

    for more references for cruelty in the bible, please refer:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

    but i guess you must be too busy gassing muslims and “all those who are different from you”, in the name of your fuhrer. 😛

    seig heil, eh?

  118. salahudin Says:

    and by the way… the above link explains cruelty and violence in the NEW testament.

    since the “word of god” is also the OLD testament, i don’t see why we shouldn’t consider it as part of the christian belief… ESPECIALLY since christians themselves insist it is so.

    AND ON TOP OF THAT, why aren’t you up in arms against the Jewish Torah? that book is definitely more violent prone than the quran…

    fascist, arencha?

    but petty insults apart, urban, i’m not one for being able to match your vehemence, anger, frustration and bigotry. you’ll defeat me in that if i keep this up. inflammatory remarks (though totally mis-aimed, since i’m not muslim! lol…) aren’t my forte.

    i actually wrote about people like you. islamohobes follow a particular FORMULA as far as their attitude and even PERSONALITIES are concerned:

    http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/the-islamophobic-perspective-of-ex-muslims/

    lol.

    but i’m not surprised. did you know what throughout human history, the group of people that succumbed to hatred and bigotry tended to have their cultural contributions to the world diminish over time?

    for example, the south’s cultural contribution to music was virtually ABSENT during their enslavement of african americans.

    conversely, the african american culture developed jazz and other musical forms as their contribution.

    so it’s NO surprise that your personality and point of view is following a FORMULA… that lacks true understanding and hence individualism.

    notice hitler’s ideals of man? They all looked the same. notice the islamofascist ideal man? they all look the same too.

    notice your attitude, mis-aimed inflammatory remarks? exactly the same as all other islamophobes.

    something’s wrong urban… and i have the feeling it isn’t the rest of the world. it’s you.

  119. Eagle Says:

    urban,

    I guess all those Muslim U.S. soldiers, aren’t “true” Muslims either. Or are they because they kill other Muslims?

    I’m confused, which is it? Also, what about Muslim police officers in America, should we worry that any day now they will blow up the police station??

  120. Tim Says:

    salahudin

    How are you today? Thank you for your links. They are informative. I would like to address the role of Jesus and the perception of violence that the site you posted indicates.

    First, I would like to say that none of that provided any instruction to the followers to Jesus to become violent or to make anyone pay for their sins. In fact, that is the sole right of the father, to punish those who do evil.

    Second, since it is the right of the father, then maybe it should be explained why. If God is a fair God, then why does he punish people? Punishment is the result of our own actions. Everyone will be punished or praised according to the good or evil that they have done in their life. For some, this in and of itself will be Hellish because they are very bad people.

    According to the Bible, all fall short of the Glory of God. If we are to approach God in our own sin, we would feel the torment of our guilt burning in us.

    God wants a relationship with His children, but none of His children can have a relationship with Him directly because they are not worthy. It is not that God rejects us, but that we reject His holiness. There are two potential solutions to this dilemma.

    1) God could become less Pure and Holy, which would allow sinful man to approach Him. Since God cannot defile Himself, or will not defile Himself, another way was needed.

    2) Through the Grace and Mercy of our Father in Heaven, he allowed his Son, Jesus who is Christ (savior of mankind) to be offered as a sacrificial lamb on our behalf. Jesus lived a pure and Holy life on earth, then was sentenced to death in His innocence. This was done as the ultimate sacrifice to a God who loves the world. If any would choose to follow Jesus and accept His sacrifice on their own behalf, they will then be cleansed of their own sins in their death and no longer be forced to withhold themselves from the presence of God the Father.

    The punishment is not a sadistic glee for God to inflict on those who he decided should not be called out to him as is presented in the Qur’an. God wills that all should come to Him, but he also wills man should have freedom to choose for themselves. His desire to be chosen is greater than His desire to have us redeemed, so the choice is up to us.

    Tell me, why does Allah find entertainment in tormenting people who he admits to have willfully rejected and prevented from hearing his “truth”?

    Qur’an 10:100
    100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place abomination on those who will not understand.

    Qur’an 7:182-183
    182. Those who reject Our Signs, We shall lead them gradually to ruin, while they known not; 183. Respite will I grant unto them: for My scheme is strong (and unfailing).

    Qur’an 37:62-68

    62. Is that the better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqq? 63. For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers. 64. For it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire: 65. The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils: 66. Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith. 67. Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water. 68. Then shall their return be to the (Blazing) Fire.

    http://www.isna.net/library/quran/quran_e/

  121. urban Says:

    Interesting snippet from the Times on line newspaper.
    Deobandi scholar (not quite sure what that is!) Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani (highly respected apparantly, not by me though) was quoted as saying he “believes that muslims should agressively wage military jihad to establish the supremacy of islam worldwide” He goes on to say that in countries like Britain “they should live peacefully until their numbers are sufficent to gain power”
    Now I’m not claiming that every muslim worldwide agrees with him, but the threat is very real.
    Think back to the 1930’s when hitler was gaining power, the appeasers didn’t take him seriously and look what happened.
    And, by the way, the Bible was written by people, whereas muslims believe the koran was dictated by allah. Big difference.
    Eagle, all “those muslim soldiers” are not good muslims.

  122. Eagle Says:

    Oh NOES, guess you better let them know…

    I’m glad you are sooo smart that you know what these Muslims think or are. I bet there are a few that would disagree with you. I know of at least one who is of the “old guard” that would for sure.

    It must be boring when your so set in your way, that there is nothing left to learn.

  123. Robert Salaam Says:

    Well, who here as worn the uniform of the US Military, I for one am one of the Few and Proud. I hear a lot of hot air coming from those who haven’t done a damn thing to protect and defend against terrorists other than run their mouths. I am a Muslim, I fight the war on terror, I am joined by many Muslims like me. Hell, there’s an Islamic Center at Marine Corps Base Quantico, that’s also the home of the FBI academy, oh I was there too with other Muslims that have action behind their words.

    Furthermore, put your money where your mouth is, I’m a religious studies major, I actually took the time to go out and read and learn what religions teach and believe, what authoritive Islamic works have you read by Muslims that teach what Islam truly is? Instead of the fly by night non-muslims that read a verse here and there and are now lauded as scholars on Islam….

    Here I dare you, heres a book that’s almost a century old on the teachings of Islam, Chapter 5 is completely about Jihad. When you can actually read something like this and tell me and 1.5 billion other Muslims what Islam truly is, then and only then will you be looked at differently then just another ignorant, hate-filled, chicken hawk.

    http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/religionislammuhammadali.shtml

  124. urban Says:

    If someone says muslims must engage in violent jihad in order to spread islam, you don’t have to be very smart to figure out what is going on in their head. He has just told the world what he thinks.
    An example of your logic:
    Schindler was in the nazi party.
    Schindler was a decent chap.
    schindler helped Jews.
    Therefore the nazi party is full of decent people who help Jews.

  125. Eagle Says:

    Urban,

    You are a closed minded person, who won’t even take the time to read any of my other posts that show that there are Muslims out there that are moderates.

    You think yourself to be some sort of expert on Islam, which you are not.

    You think you know what is in the mind of every Muslim on the planet, which you do not.

    You think you are a better judge of Islam than anybody else, including those who were born into Islam and were devout Muslims, you are NOT.

    But you are not alone, there are many others who think like you do. Thank goodness they are in the minority.

    There are many radical Muslims out there that think the same way that you do. Nothing any one says to them will change their mind. They feel they know what is right, and anyone who strays from their narrow perspective of life and Islam, can and would pay with their life. They too are in the minority. I think God for that, as well.

    As I already said, too bad you are so closed minded that you are not open to learning anything knew. How boring.

    YOU are NOT going to change my mind. I have Muslim friends. I KNOW that most Muslims don’t agree with the beliefs of radical Islam. The same way that all Christians don’t believe in the beliefs of other Christians.

    For example, I am a Christian, but not Catholic. I don’t believe in praying to the Virgin Mary, I also don’t believe in how priests are held in such high regards, they are just people. I don’t believe the way that Mormans believe or Jehovah Witness’s. Why you find that so hard to understand, is beyond me.

  126. cerebate Says:

    Urban
    Since you seem to be of the opinion that “and the peaceful ones are bad muslims.” I need you to answer a few questions for me (Im no bible/koran expert nor am i going to read them in detail so i rely on you /the internet )
    a. Does the bible have sections which condemn homosexuality and calls the practice an abomination (got this from a republican politician)?
    b. Does the bible state that two men who sleep together should be killed(I forget the verse)?
    Assuming a) and b) are true, would you then conclude that christians who dont go about killing gays are bad christians?

    (for the record I have no problem with homosexuality , they dont judge me, i dont judge them)
    Im from india and Im lucky enough that in my childhood Ive had hindu, muslim, catholic and sikh friends. Some of them devoutly religious, none of them fanatics and none of them who i would call bad muslims/christians or whatever.

  127. Eagle Says:

    cerebate,

    BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO.. Great question. The items you mentioned are indeed in the Bible.

  128. salahudin Says:

    TIM: i actually don’t care for the link i posted. the point of that post was to prove to urban that if you interpret the bible in a certain way, you can come up with equally violent verses from it. that’s all.

    but urban is still ranting and he CONVENIENTLY ignored everything i just said because it probably hurts his brain to see a decent reply to his garbage.

    as for your quote from the quran: lol… good stuff there. some of the other Towelians (the group I belong to) left islam because of stuff like that as well.

    Of course, I need you to realize first that I am an agnostic atheist. and ex-muslim.

    I agree with you on your criticism of islamic philosophy, although i think the same can be said for christianity: why would god punish those who have NOT taken christ as their savior etc?

    that’s a RHETORICAL point of view and i have little interest in dealing with chritian philosophy or theology. you’re welcome to offer me your point of view but i want you to know i have no interest in taking this discussion in that direction and so i probably won’t respond to it.

    Thanks for the comments though.

  129. Eagle Says:

    Robert,

    THANK YOU!!!

    so URBAN, what have you got to say about Roberts comment???

  130. Tim Says:

    cerebate ,

    I would like to answer your question about the Bible. First, there are several passages in the Christian Bible that mention acts of Homosexuality in one for or another. The most famous in the Old Testament involve Sodom and Gomorra, while the New Testament is more explicit.

    Romans 5:26-27
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    As for instructions to kill, the only times that God had condoned killing was under the Law of Moses. This Law was explicitly established for the Jewish people as a means of governing themselves. There was no expressed mention of Homosexuality in these law, but a number of sexual perversions did carry a death sentence. These including various forms of adultery, pedophilia and bestiality.

    It should be noted that Christians are not under the Law of Moses but under the Grace of God. We are not instructed to kill in the new testament. In fact, if you want to be specific about it, G.W. Bush could not be called a ‘Good Christian’ based on his policy of dealing with the Terrorists. The Bible teaches that we are to win our enemies with Love, not violence.

    One major area where Muslims and Christians are at polar opposites is in the definition of martyr. During Jihad, Muhammad instructed his men that they should fight for the cause of Islam and if they die they will be Martyrs and enter straight into paradise, you know the whole 72 virgins and rivers of wine etc. (Funny how Islamic paradise involves acts that are forbidden for Muslims on earth)

    In Christianity, a Martyr is a person who dies for believing in Christ. These were the Christians who Nero threw to the Lions. Or more recently these were the Christians murdered by the Taliban because they refused to convert to Islam. In Christianity, there is no, to my knowledge of the scriptures, order to kill for God. Just the opposite is normally the case. God of the Bible instructs His people to rely on Him for protection and not on their own understanding.

  131. cerebate Says:

    Tim
    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions
    a) I assume this is yes then
    b) ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.’ (Leviticus 20:13) –
    Is this an inaccurate transalation? No mention of paedophilia or bestiality.

    Dont take my questions as an attempt to criticise christianity. My fiancee is catholic and I have schooled in a jesuit school.
    And i know that people who interpret religious texts literally or do not change with times do cause problems, but they aren’t the majority.
    So while the Quran may have some violent verses, I doubt most muslims follow them to the letter or are bad muslims if they dont. Its quite irritating to see a few right wing extremists call the people who we should be encouraging “bad muslims”

    As to your comparisons of martyr’s , you may be right in theory, your wrong in practice. See for e.g. St Olaf. There are other’s who have been made saints and martyr’s by the catholic church who have forcibly converted and killed people. I could look up the names but it’s not really my point.

  132. Eagle Says:

    Tim,

    The point of cerebate’s comment is to point out the fact he pointed out. Not for a lesson in bible study. He was showing Urban that the Bible says things that we don’t follow today, the same as the Quran.

    All Christians don’t think alike, all Muslims don’t think alike, all Jews don’t think alike.

    Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law. Just because as Christians we are under Grace, does not mean that we no longer believe what the old testament says. There is a reason that the Bible comes with both testaments.

  133. Tim Says:

    I understand what cerebate is saying, I just think it is better to be specific. There are a lot of people who have these discussions making vague references to one religion or another. We cannot reach any fair conclusion about the matter without specifics.

    I have heard people denounce the bible as being equally violent prone as the quran, but they never back it up with verses or any comparitive literature. The seem to assume that it is true or at least that nobody is willing to verify their claims.

    This becomes an issue, because when a person does go verify what was spoken in assumption, that person is likely to come under fire as spreading hatred, when all they did was check the references and found that the original speaker was inaccurate.

    Robert Spencer is a good case in point. His writings are specific and he is very well educated on islamic writings and traditions. He speaks rationally and seeks to open up conversations such as this one, at universities and in the media. For his efforts, he has faced legal issues with CAIR, he is demonized on many college campuses as spreading hate. He never said that Muslims are bad people. Not once. But people who are critical of him say much worse things about his point of view.

    I hope that you understand, that if we speak in generalities, we must rely on our own assumptions, which is the main reason that this thread is so long. Elric has assumptions and reads about 60% and dismisses the other 40% that disagrees with his point of view.

    Urban seems more prone to read both sides, but since the argument is still primarily based on assumption, there is nothing here to persuade him to chage his mind. I mean, clearly, as pointed our before, if even 1% of muslims were terrorists, that would be 10,000,000 including around 400,000 in the United States. I think that we would have a lot more noticible problem here if that were the case.

  134. cerebate Says:

    Tim
    Its funny you bring up Robert Spencer because I did spend some times on his jihadwatch site to judge for myself his objectivity, his bias, and the message he’s trying to spread.
    Now Im neither a muslim nor a christian , so i believe Im more neutral than most on the site and Id say he is biased, he does his own brand of propaganda, and he’s absolutely no use if we are trying to find a peaceful way forward.
    You can also see the kind of people that support robert by reading the comments. Almost every argument is an ad hominem attack or a strawman.
    He keeps insisting that all the violent deeds attributed to christians werent committed in the name of christianity. And then goes on to say the Crusades werent in the name of christianity, go figure!
    Like all other people who are extremists, he keeps repeating what’s he has said and refuses to listen to what the other side says.

    As before i have no doubt that there are violent phrases in most religious texts. the Bible has the story of Noah’s ark. if this is true, this is the worst act of genocide ever seen and doesnt fit in with any of Jesus’ teachings that I am aware of. Most christians say Oh thats old testament. But as eagle has pointed out Christ said he came as fulfillment not as replacement. No reputable Christian priest comes out and says The Old testament is wrong and incorrect do they?
    And it may be the Quran is more violent than the Bible , so what?
    In the end , do you think that the muslims are more likely or less likely to work with the west after they have read what Robert has to say?

  135. Eagle Says:

    Tim,

    If Urban had read anything beyond this one post, he would have seen he is wrong. If he even bothered reading and responding to Robert and/or salahudin, he would also see that. He has made his point very clear, and that is that even our Muslim soldiers, who he knows nothing of, are not “true” Muslims. THAT, is why cerebate said what he did.

    As far as Robert Spencer, being well educated, my problem is with anybody who only list the negative. My blog is about radical Islam, but I make it abundantly clear that I don’t think all Muslims fall into that bracket and in fact, are one of the main targets of radical Islam. When you speak only the negative, you create bigots where you didn’t need to.

    Most of the commenters on this particular post, are from Jihad Watch and Weaselzipper which are two blogs that never, ever, have anything good to say about Islam. They came here because Elric sent them. They are convinced that I am wrong.

    Does that sound like people who are Knowledgable and open minded?? Claiming that all of Islam is violent is like saying all black people are criminals, because the numbers in prison are higher. Makes absolutely no sense.

  136. Eagle Says:

    Cerebate beat me too it…what he said. 😀

  137. cerebate Says:

    Hey eagle
    I agree with you too :). And i did come to this blog due to elric, but not what he intended i suppose.
    Atleast I can grant that Tim is civil and we can have a civilised disagreement, which is more than what I can say for a lot of people on Jihad Watch.
    Tim , we could discuss specifics (there is the skeptic’s annotated bible which lists the verse etc for every violent verse in the bible) but it would really serve no point. You would answer it as verses being mistranslated, being out of context, being misinterpreted, being vague. Muslims do the same when their religion is criticised.
    And we waste time that could be better spent in other activities. There is a threat that society faces today, and we should collectively figure out solutions to it. To me Jihadwatch, Robert Spencer, Ann Coulter and their ilk are part of the problem. (And so are islamic fundamentalists).
    In case you think im pro islam , Im Not. As before Im from India and we have had our share of Hindu – Muslim riots. But I have seen first hand the difference between Hindu Fundamentalists and Islamic Fundamentalists. Like eagle says – Not much

  138. Tim Says:

    I understand what you mean about the message boards on Jihadwatch. I don’t post there, because nobody seems reasonable enough or even interested in discussion. That is more of a place to vent for people who are angry and frightened about the uncertain future.

    There are a lot of conspiracy theories in this topic. Some say the plot is started by Israel trying to control the Middle East; others say that there is a deliberate Islamic expansion movement to take over the world.

    The problem is, the ones saying these things often have the least amount of credibility. There are some Muslims who have openly claimed that their goal is to spread Islamic Law across the globe. Those are who I oppose. The problem is, I do not know how to oppose them. I am reasonably sure that everyone on this board would oppose an Islamic takeover of the US. But I am also sure that Eagle, cerebate and salahudin see that as a viable threat.

    I must admit, that the proof is absent at this point. All I can say is that in 600 AD Islam was a small movement in the Arab Peninsula, and by 800 AD it had taken over the entire Middle East and was spreading to Europe, Asia and Africa. It was conquest by Jihadists which spawned the first crusade.

    There is a1400 year track record in which militant Muslims have attempted to spread their religion in this way. Even as recent as 1906 this was occurring. I have read from Christian Authors whose grand parents were Missionaries in various parts of Turkey. Islamic Jihadists would ride into town, gather up all of the Christians, tell them to convert to Islam or be killed. None of the reports I read included Christians who converted, but the ones who did not were killed and typically dumped into a ravine.

    The point is that, most people do not choose to be Muslim, but they are either born into it or they are forced into it. Some, I know do willingly convert to Islam of their own accord. That is fine for them. But since the Qur’an explicitly says that any Muslim who leaves the faith should be put to death, and since so many are made into Muslims against their will, this is an issue. Even the reporters who were in Palastine were required to become Muslim according to the report they made upon their release.

  139. cerebate Says:

    “There are some Muslims who have openly claimed that their goal is to spread Islamic Law across the globe. Those are who I oppose”
    atleast we agree on some things. The key point is that you say “some”.

    “The point is that, most people do not choose to be Muslim, but they are either born into it or they are forced into it”
    True. But it is also true of other religions , including christianity. What age is a child baptised at? What age is he first taken to church at? Is confirmation truly a choice when the child is only taught christianity at home and isnt exposed to other faiths or belief or alternatives?
    No this isnt an attempt to compare Islam/ Christianity, just that a lot of people are born into a religion and take it to be the one true religion. Some like me reevaluate their beliefs every day and follow no religion or can find good in any religion. Religion is static , Life is dynamic.

    As to forced conversions, true a lot of atrocities are committed in the name of Islam. In India , hindus were forcibly converted to Islam when the mughal’s were in power. When the british/portugese came to power, do you think there were no forced conversions to christianity? And now that hindu fundamentalism is on the rise in India , do you think there arent atrocities committed on Christians/ Muslims?

  140. Eagle Says:

    Tim,
    NO ONE here is arguing that radical Islam is bad. I will go to my death before being forced to follow any religion against my will. But, I will also fight beside any Muslim who is told that he cannot practice his religion either. That is the main difference between me and some of the “Jihad Watch” crowd.

    Am I disappointed that more Muslims are not speaking up against radical Islam, you bet I am. I think the main problem, and I will be posting about this, is some Muslims are sooo focused on their hate for Israel that they fail to see the threat they face from their own “brothers” in the faith. I say that because of some of the things I have seen on my other blog.

    That is one of the reasons I blog, I want Muslims to read this blog, I want them to understand the threat that we all face over radical Islam. That is why I use the words of the radicals themselves. How better for me to show anyone who reads this, than by using their own words.

    People like Urban, will totally ignore people like salahudin and Robert because it goes against their mind set and to acknowledge them, is to admit that he is wrong.

    My point is that I agree radical Islam wants to control the earth in a taliban style of government. However, not all Muslims agree with this or support it. It’s really just that simple. I write about radical Islam because I am concerned about that threat. I am able to see and separate the two.

  141. Tim Says:

    Just so you know, I understand what you are saying and I understand that Violent Islamic Jihadists make up only a tiny percentage of Islam as a whole.

    Osama bin Laden is equivalent to a Rock Star. He has some groupies who will die for him, there are others who listen to him, but then turn the station and listen to Ricky Martin as well… and most of the world, until Sept 11, 2001 really did not care what bin Laden was singing about.

    Pardon the metaphore, but I would like to be understood on this one point. I am not angry at, nor do I blame Muslims for nor accuse them as a group of attacking our country.

    The ones who attacked us, those who we are fighting in Aphganistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Spain, Germany, UK and here at home are a group of people who are using their religion as a means of identifying themselves as well as disguising themselves. There in lies the problem. Over a billion Muslims, who have traditionally kept themselves in a closed society so far as their religion is concerned, and we need to find the dangerous ones before the blow something up.

    So I am looking for honest conversations on the topic. That is all. I am not mad about this or anything. I clearly have no idea what the solution is. I know that angry rants on the topic are distractions from the solution. For myself and for others. I appreciate the forum here, because some such as yourselves are able to look through the anger and try to find reason. Others on both sides, I have noticed are incapable of this.

    So what can we do?

  142. Tim Says:

    cerebate, I can understand where you are coming from. I should have left that more open as I understand that very few of us are capable of choosing our religion. We are either the same as our parents or irreligious all together which may or may not have also been a choice.

    As for the Brittish colonization of India, I have a friend from India and he has rarely said anything nice about the Brits regarding that time. I feel bad for that as well. Our world has had harsh rulers and harsh circumstances marring most of recorded history. It is the future that I am worried about.

    This blog is turning into a book… Do you have the ability to archive it so we can move to the latest one?

  143. cerebate Says:

    Tim
    I dont blame the brits , And i wont judge today by what happened 100+ years ago, it was just that people in power do tend to abuse it.
    Its good to hear your views and If ive been harsh its only to illustrate a point , no offense intended. I know its difficult to have a honest conversation on this topic. Too often people get emotional and resort to name calling
    As to the solution your guess is as good as mine. Id say education and open mindedness and critical reasoning is what we all need, But I dont think the muslim’s will listen to outsiders. Attempts by outsiders (e.g. America democraticising Iraq) will only backfire. They need some of their moderates and Intellectuals to take on the extremists. For us we need to ensure that our extremists are ignored or laughed at.

  144. Eagle Says:

    Tim, you will have to pardon my ignorance, but I am not very computer literate, so I wouldn’t know how to archive without some one telling me.

    In regards to your other question, I think that we must keep in mind our constitution. We can’t do away with that out of fear. I think that there needs to be more of a concentrated effort of “propaganda” if you will. We need to do some of the same things that were done between Jews and Christians, and Christians and Christians to understand our different views. We have these kinds of meetings all over the free world. Not just in regards to religion, but some forums between Police and citizens, teachers and students, parents and kids, etc. Communication, its a simple concept but it doesn’t appear that anyone is doing it.

    I evicted Elric from my other blog because every time a Muslim did comment he attacked them and they wouldn’t come back. We as a country need to do more to understand not just the Muslim living in our country but around the world. There should be some attempt by our religious leaders to meet with religious leaders of Muslim nations to have talks, or retreats. Right now we are the big bad wolf to them, and they are to us. That will not change until we do something about changing it. Also we have to understand how they feel about Jews and Israel, most Muslims hate them, they see us as their protector even though we have never assisted them in battle.

    The difference between the Muslim world and everyone else is pretty big in a lot of ways. That will never change unless we make a concerted effort to change it. Calling all Muslims terrorists isn’t the answer. Ignoring basis common sense isn’t the answer. You wouldn’t go up to a black man and call him the n word, and then claim its free speech. Why would you think that if you insult them by making cartoons of their prophet, would not cause an uproar. Sure its free speech, but it wasn’t the right thing to do. Not if you really want to learn and/or care about radical Islam. Doing stuff like that, only gives the radicals the ammunition they want to turn other Muslims against us. I can tell you for fact, that every negative story about our soldiers are broadcast on every radical website out there. So are those ridiculous story’s that 9/11 was an inside job.

    I make as many Muslim friends as I can, I ask questions and I answer questions. I am ALWAYS respectful, even when dealing with radicals. Others are not, which again reinforces their stereotypes and gives them fuel for the fire.

  145. Tim Says:

    I think that you are right when you say we do not want to do away with our constitution. I may never go up to a black guy and use the ‘N’ word, but I certainly have a constitutional right to use that word as I see fit, unless it is specifically attempting to incite a riot. Yelling ‘fire’ in a theatre when there is no fire, is an explicit act which can only be interpreted as trying to start a panic. I do not believe that the cartoonists had the intent of causing havoc in the Middle East when they submitted their drawings.

    Anybody could get offended about anything. Being offended does not give someone the right to burn down churches and murder nuns. If you are offended, it is fine to say I am offended. Though it is not helpful for understanding, I can even accept the response to offend back. But murder is not an appropriate response to someone insulting your religion. if it were, the Christians should be murderous about Islam’s defilement of Jesus. They claim he is merely a lesser prophet, compared to Muhammad.

    I am not condoning murder. I am merely saying that, while I acknowledge that the Danish newspaper printed caricatures that were likely offensive to many Muslims, it is not of my opinion that it is fair to say the newspaper is responsible for the uproar that is caused. There were rabble rousers who caused that uproar and the fault of the murders that took place as a result are blood on their hands.

  146. Tim Says:

    As far as Archiving a website such as this there are two simple ways.

    1) Remove the code for this comments box using the site editor.

    2) if that is not available, make a duplicate page to this one with no content box, but the rest of the content and then delete this page and rename the duplicate page so it has the same name as the deleted page.

  147. urban Says:

    I’ve probably said this before, but it looks like I’ll have to say it again.
    True muslims believe that mohammed went off to a cave (pity he didn’t stay there) the Angel Gabriel appeared and proceeded to dictate the koran to mo. They believe that Gabriel was speaking on behalf of allah (who used to be the moon god, but somehow got promoted) .Therefore, according to muslims, the koran is the literal word of allah. Now I don’t claim to have spoken to every muslim on the planet, but that is my understanding of how the koran came to be.
    By the same token, I cannot claim to speak on behalf of all christians and Jews, nor can I claim to be an expert on their beliefs, but I think most people accept that both the Old and New testaments written by people thousands of years ago, and is not some kind of dictation from God. Rational people will accept that much of it is pure fantasy, and that the creation, for example , didn’t quite happen as the bible says it did.
    However, If we take the 10 commandments from the old testament, and the message of love and peace, that Jesus gives us, that is not a bad blueprint for society.
    Look at what islam has to offer. It is very difficult to modernise, because how can one go against the literal word of allah?
    Robert seems a well educated reasonable chap, however I’m sure there are many muslims that would consider him to be a traitor to islam, and would, if they got the opportunity, happily remove his head from his shoulders whilst finding a verse or two in the koran to justify their actions.

  148. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    While your personal sentiments are admirable, they are essentially, valueless. People who you would call “extremists”, like bin Laden, are nothing of the sort. They are examples of those who are practicing true Islam, the abrogated Medinan version.

    When one understands that sura 9 was “revealed” to Muhammad as the penultimate chapter of the Qur’an, it is impossible not to question the degree of infulence via the obvious contradictions that were presented through the process of naskh. For example, the “there is no compulsion in religion” verse that was present in the Meccan verses of the Qur’an, now appear, by the presence of the verse of the sword, to be in direct contradiction.

    Most historical Islamic scholars agree that any contradictions in the Qur’an are settled by observing the later revelation of the two. Sura 9 being one of the last (second to last specifically) is most problematic to the non-Islamic community, in my opinion.

    When one has the comprehension of that, coupled with the additional obstacle that the Qur’an is perceived by Muslims to be the direct, immutable word of Allah, it is somewhat utopian to expect a major reformation in Islam. Muslims, especially scholars who use Islam as a socio-political weapon will not line up to change or clarify the Qur’an. To do so, eseentially strips the Qur’an of it’s supposed divinity.

    If for example, the intolerant verses in sura 9 are considered moot, or are not to be considered as dominant, does it no imply that Allah made mistakes? Currently, it is arranged that Allah just changed his mind and adapted to the changing historical times. Logically, it can be no other way.

    No one has ever stated at Jihad Watch that all Muslims are terrorists. Most Muslims are completely irrelevant when compared to the ideology of Islam. Many are merely cultural Muslims, no different than nominal Christians, declaring themselves a ssuch merely for cultural identification purposes only. That being said, the overwhelming majority of terrorist acts commited today are perpetrated by Muslims.

    I fear that based on the aforementioned reasoniong that Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb will remain perpetually locked in a state of conflict. It is possible to offset this, but the onus is completely on the Islamic community as a whole and will not be accomplished by any amount of empty lip-service paid to it. Without further abrogation or at least exploratory interpretation as it was during the time of ijtihad, questioning the Qur’an itself, nothing will change.

  149. cerebate Says:

    Urban
    You have to realise that your messages will only provoke angry rejoinders that do nothing to improve the status quo and actively harm it.
    For e.g. if i had to debate your comments I could point out

    “I think most people accept that both the Old and New testaments written by people thousands of years ago, and is not some kind of dictation from God”
    Umm no. All proof of jesus and the divinity of jesus is always shown using quotations from the bible is it not? There is lots of literature online that claim that the bible is the word of god and do believe in creationism. Yes rational people wouldnt.

    “However, If we take the 10 commandments from the old testament, and the message of love and peace, that Jesus gives us, that is not a bad blueprint for society.”
    You havent read the 10 commandments have you?
    “..for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents..” sure goes well with a message of Love and peace.

    Robert well educated- probably, reasonable? I doubt it.
    You lump all muslims as a single entity. That is the main reason why you find it difficult to accept that not all muslims are the way you portray them. Clearly most people on this site accept that radical Islam exists and is bad and should be opposed. Why is it so difficult to accept that not all muslims follow the literal word of the Quran?

  150. koranist Says:

    Koran preaches peace.
    Read it yourself.

    “And among His signs are the creation of the heaven and earth, and the variation in your language and your colors; verily in that are signs for those who know” (30:22).

    “Satan seeks only to cast among you enmity and hate”(5:91).

    O you who believe! Stand out for justice, as witnesses to God, and even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be rich or poor. An-Nisaa’ 4:134

    “O you who believe! Be the maintainers of justice and bearers of witness for God’s sake though it be against your own self, parents and relatives” (4:135).

    “O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous” (49:13).

    O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety and fear God, for God is well acquainted with all that you do. 5:8

    And thus We made of you a justly balanced community that you might bear witness to humankind and the Apostle might bear witness over you. 2:143

    The believers are nothing else other than brothers, Thus make peace between your brethren and observe your duty to God that you may haply receive His mercy (49: 1 0).

    O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6

    O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12

    Islam is peace!

  151. Eagle Says:

    Urban,

    I am so glad to see that you know soooo much more about Islam, then a devout Muslim and Marine, like Robert.

    You were the one that said all Muslim American soldiers were not “true” Muslims.

    But I also noticed that you had nothing to say to either Robert or Salahudin. Nor did you answer their questions.

    I agree with cerebate and his comments to you, you can’t acknowledge those people because to do so, would show you are wrong

  152. Eagle Says:

    Another funny thing Uraban, I consider the Bible to be from God!!!!!

  153. Eagle Says:

    The same goes to you AWAKE. Why don’t you read and answer Robert Salaam and Salahudin??

    The radicals are in the minority.

  154. cerebate Says:

    Awake
    “No one has ever stated at Jihad Watch that all Muslims are terrorists.”
    Yes jihadwatch says all muslims arent terrorists and then adds that those who arent, aren’t true muslims!

    Again I wonder why people are so interested in splitting hairs over what the Quran(or any religious text) does or does not say?
    Why not deal with the people practising the religion and come to some form of acceptable compromise?
    Why call the people who are likely to come to some sort of understanding with you, not true muslims? What gives you the right?

  155. urban Says:

    Good point Cerebate, I havn’t read the !0 commandments for a good few years, many people, me included ,remember thou shalt not kill, and a few others, but forget the rest. perhaps we should re-name them the 9 commandments, and one rant from Moses.
    Eagle, isnt the new testament made up of the gospel according to…….? (people)
    I’m not claiming to be an expert on islam. I’m not an expert on nazism or cancer, but I know enough about them to hope I never have to face the threat of either. But koranist, I do know that the peaceful meccan verses that you kindly reproduce for us have been abrogated by the violent verses from medina.
    I don’t think we are ever going to agree on the question regarding islam and radical islam, but I’ll leave you with this thought.
    If people followed the example of Christ, the world would be a peaceful place, however if people followed the example of islam’s founder, the world would be in a constant state of bloodshead. In fact,I think all life on the planet would have been wiped out centuries ago.
    Islam is like a cancer, in every country it has settled in it has destroyed the host culture or is in the process of destroying it.
    I am as certain as I can be, Eagle, that had you lived in Europe in the 1930’s you would have joined the chorus of empty headed liberals that mocked and derided heroes like Churchill for having the brains and the guts to recognise ,stand up and confront an evil ideology.

  156. salahudin Says:

    great stuff there, cerebate!

    urban, you continue to spew forth hatred against islam, even though you’ve been given evidence otherwise! right here a few posts up! yet you ignore it.

    guess what? the person who hates is most likely to succumb to committing violence.

    and right now that person is you…

  157. awake Says:

    Guys,

    Can we try to keep it a little bit real here? I made a valid posting about the historical nature of the Qur’an and the concept and practice of naskh. What is your opinion of abrogation and how should contradictory sentiments found in the Qur’an be resolved?

    I also made a statement that many Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the direct, immutable words of Allah. Is this true in your opinion?

    Simply stating that the Bible is God’s word does not make it so, as an attempt to compare it to the words of Allah in the Qur’an. The Old and New Testaments are simply that, “testaments” of the historical times by men, subject to error and adulteration through historical translation. Muslims make no such claims about the Qur’an.

    The concept that violent passages exist in the Old and New testament is irrelevant when used in an attempt to show a religious moral equivalence with the Qur’an. Where is any contemporary example of Christian violence as supported by Christian texts? We see examples of Muslim violence by those who claim it as obligatory, a mandate from the Qur’an on a daily basis.

    I have no problem engaging in a respectful debate, but I will not just sit here to read the same old rhetoric. Be critical of Christianity. It, like everything else deserves it’s fair share, just like Islam does.

    I would absolutely love, for once, for someone to address MY points in MY post, and show qme where my initial presuppositions are incorrect or where I have erred, not simply “Hey, why don’t you answer this question?”

    And cerebate, I am dealing with the people that practice the religion, or at least those who believe they are, the jihadists. If 9/11 and all the subsequent “terrorist” attacks didn’t occur, do you think anyone would care about what the Qur’an says? Do you think anyone would be sitting here questioning Islam at all?

    Like I said, let’s try to keep it a little real here. It is an undeniable fact that Jihad Watch came into existence AFTER 9/11. Cause and effect. An act (9/11), that compelled a response (JihadWatch).

  158. Eagle Says:

    Once again, both URBAN and AWAKE, ignore salahudin and Robert Salaam. Why is that guys?? Doesnt it fall into your view of Islam?? Don’t you have an answer for a devout Muslim or a former devout Muslim??

  159. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    you call abrogated verses evidence. I don’t, I call them abrogated verses. If islam is so peaceful, why are so many terrorist acts carried out worldwide in the name of islam?
    There must be a whole load of your co-religionists, that
    seem to mis-understand your religion, perhaps you should spend some of your time trying to convince them that islam is peaceful

  160. salahudin Says:

    “If islam is so peaceful, why are so many terrorist acts carried out worldwide in the name of islam?”

    because they are following a totalitarian ideology that seeks to put them in power…?

    just like the catholic church once did.. just like the crusaders ATE people in the name of jesus: they were intolerant bigots.

  161. salahudin Says:

    sorry. didn’t phrase that well but you get the idea. it’s not ISLAM that’s making them do this.. it’s their hatred.

    it’s too simplistic to believe it’s islam. 🙂

  162. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    where’s the evidence islam is peaceful?

  163. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    I am sorry, I entered this thread after the supposed answers to my question not yet posed were dealt with by Salahudin and Robert Salaam. What are the specific questions?

    Also, Is anyone going to address my comments?
    I asked specific questions based on my initial posting. Can we dissuss the questions that I asked there?

  164. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    Even though you can scroll up as easily as I can. I will copy roberts post here. Urban made the statement that all Muslims in the US Military were not “true” Muslims. That seems to be the general idea of some of the people who have posted here.

    Not to mention the fact that even though I stated that I would probe them wrong, my blogstat’s show, that no one has even bothered to look at the posts following this one. Which shows me, that no matter what is said, or what is shown, your mind is made up.

    When I go back to the website where you all came from and point out the post, “Where are those Moderate Muslims”…I get from you,…”are you kidding?” sounds open minded to me…at any rate, here is Roberts post

    Well, who here as worn the uniform of the US Military, I for one am one of the Few and Proud. I hear a lot of hot air coming from those who haven’t done a damn thing to protect and defend against terrorists other than run their mouths. I am a Muslim, I fight the war on terror, I am joined by many Muslims like me. Hell, there’s an Islamic Center at Marine Corps Base Quantico, that’s also the home of the FBI academy, oh I was there too with other Muslims that have action behind their words.

    Furthermore, put your money where your mouth is, I’m a religious studies major, I actually took the time to go out and read and learn what religions teach and believe, what authoritive Islamic works have you read by Muslims that teach what Islam truly is? Instead of the fly by night non-muslims that read a verse here and there and are now lauded as scholars on Islam….

    Here I dare you, heres a book that’s almost a century old on the teachings of Islam, Chapter 5 is completely about Jihad. When you can actually read something like this and tell me and 1.5 billion other Muslims what Islam truly is, then and only then will you be looked at differently then just another ignorant, hate-filled, chicken hawk.

    http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/religionislammuhammadali.shtml

  165. EloiVsDiablo Says:

    The war and belligerence far out weigh nice and pretty verses, no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it’s still a pig…
    3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
    War fight;
    8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
    War war war;
    8:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.
    War war war;
    9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
    Bigotry exposed;
    5:14 And with those who say: “Lo! we are Christians,” We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.
    More bigotry exposed;
    5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
    allah rewards thieves;
    Advocating theft;
    48:19 And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
    Non-muslim treatment in islamic lands explained;
    5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
    War, muslims love it;
    2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
    Get this one, persecution is worse than slaughter. Is it any wonder?
    2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    A repeat of not having non-believing friends, explains muslim behavior;
    3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers.
    The quran is the most idiotic book ever ‘thrown’ together, the repeated threats of ‘hell fire’ and ‘doom’ – how anyone could consider it a spiritually guided book is quite ridiculous. BTW, I could go on and on reciting the bullshit in the holey quran…

  166. Eagle Says:

    Hmmm, what about some of what koranist posted?? Why is it that even though we don’t have 1.something billion Muslims comitting terrorists acts, you continue to think that all of Islam is terroristic?? There have been terrorists in Christianity, but not all of Christianity is terroristic. There are a lot of criminals, but not all people are criminals. The Bible contains some of the same type of verses, so what does that mean?? You may think that the Quran is an “idiotic” book, but Muslims consider it Holy, the same way Christians consider the Bible holy. Why you think that it is alright to slam and insult all Muslims is beyond me. You look just as ridiculous, as what you say Muslims are!!

  167. salahudin Says:

    “Salahudin,
    where’s the evidence islam is peaceful?”

    let’s see…

    what DO you know about islam? basic tenets of islam are…? not violent. are they pro-peace? yes…

    okay.. what else? quranic verses?

    [42.40] And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust.

    [7.199] Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant.

    [24.22] And let not those of you who possess grace and abundance swear against giving to the near of kin and the poor and those who have fled in Allah’s way, and they should pardon and turn away. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [64.14] …and if you pardon and forbear and forgive, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [42.43] And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.

    [3.133] And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord; and a Garden, the extensiveness of which is (as) the heavens and the earth, it is prepared for those who guard (against evil).
    [3.134] Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
    [3.135] And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults– and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.

    how about an islamic sect that has a TRACK RECORD OF PEACE AND LOVE!????

    SUFISM:
    http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/04/05/how-islam-is-not-evil/

    as for EloisVs’s ludicrous quranic verses… allow me to demolish them 😛

    he said:

    “Advocating theft;
    48:19 And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.”

    FIRST we put it in the CONTEXT of the verses above and below:

    [48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory,
    [48.19] And many acquisitions which they will take; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
    [48.20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path.

    THEN we look at the historical situation when it was “Revealed”, in order to put it in the correct historical context and hence not derive an arbitrary meaning from it:

    when the makkan pagans agreed to allow the muslims safe passage to their city for 10 years, this was what was meant by acquisitions, SINCE makkah (which literally translates to CENTER) was the center of A MAJOR TRADE ROUTE of that era.

    the rest of his verses can also be easily demolished… one just needs to be… ahem.. learned.

  168. in2thefray Says:

    Wow isn’t it a bitch when an apostate actually knows the book ? Let’s just accept that the majority of Muslims (or any other faith) are as close to true as humans can get.If not you have to accept that the slim minority of any faith is the crowd that is Heaven bound even when they don’t know S@#$.

  169. salahudin Says:

    😛

    well said in2thefray!

  170. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    I disagree with Urban’s statement regarding Muslims in the military. Like I said, there are many Muslims who do not adhere to the letter of their respective faith, are Muslims for cultural identification purposes only, like nominal Christians. A different question that I would pose, is how can you tell the difference between those who are loyal to the US and those who are loyal to Allah?

    Anyway, urban’s point, I believe, that according to the Qur’an, Muslims have loyalty to Allah first and foremost and that allegiance outweigfhs all others, including nuclear family relations. Do you agree with this? If you are living in America, would you consider yourself more an American Muslim or a Muslim American? I believe there is a difference there.

    Eagle, btw, my response to your “awake, how so”, was my initial posting in this thread here. Your “thanking” of Elric66 for bringing people to your blog was what I was responding to.

    OK, you see here? I answered the question that you referred to, since it was certainly not directed to me initially.
    It’s easy to do. Now, can YOU answer my questions about naskh in Islam that I posed above…pretty please?

  171. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    I can tell you one thing for absolute FACT!!! When it comes to loyalty, Christians feel the same way that Muslims do. Our loyalty is to God first, then our spouse, then our kids, then our nation. When our nation falls out of respect for our beliefs, we will not follow it. For example, there is a big problem right now with the House and Senate, wanting to legislate a more encompassing hate crime law. IE calling on churches to hire people the church consider’s out of bounds of the Bible’s teaching, such as trasvestites, or gays. The churches of our nation for the most part, have been against this. That is just a small example and I don’t even know if I wrote that so that you understand what I am trying to say. In other words, if the “state” said, you WILL, bow down to this, or that, Christians will say, NO I WON’T. For the most part I think that is what Muslims mean when they say that God comes first. It comes first for Christians as well. We don’t burn flags, because we feel it is disrespectful. Plus we think that most people understand where are loyalty’s are and who and what comes first.

    I am sure that if you asked Robert he would tell you the same thing.

    Is this your pretty please?? “While your personal sentiments are admirable, they are essentially, valueless. People who you would call “extremists”, like bin Laden, are nothing of the sort. They are examples of those who are practicing true Islam, the abrogated Medinan version.”

    My opinions are valueless?? To you maybe. I would rather you address your questions towards Robert or salahudin, as both were or are devout Muslims. They are best suited to answer your questions. In2thefray, has posted a very good comment as well.

  172. salahudin Says:

    in2thefray’s an apostate as well? :S

  173. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    Do not take that statement as a personal attack, for it was obviously not intended as such. It was intended to show that individual beliefs pale in comparison to the collective ideology of Islam, specifically with regards to the Qur’an.

    I am a nominal Roman Catholic and consider myself American first and foremost. I enjoy the separation of church and state here in the US. I try to live a good Christian life, but do not consider it above all else in terms of priority. I believe that we are markedly different in that regard. Your statement does validate Urban’s point a bit regarding Muslims in the US military.

    My original posting about abrogation of the Qur’an, coupled with the distinguishing fact that the Qur’an is deemed divine as opposed to the testaments of Christianity present the biggest obstacle for any meaningful reform in Islam.

    When you question the Qur’an’s divinity, choosing what to believe and follow and what to ignore, you are on dangerous ground. I just do not see a mainstream movement towards that.

    Regarding slahudin. Is he really a devout Muslim? I thought he said, “Of course, I need you to realize first that I am an agnostic atheist. and ex-muslim.”

    The agnostic, atheist self-label is an obvious contradiction in terms, but he did say he was an apostate from Islam, right?

    I ask anyone to address the conundrum about the divine Qur’an and the historical occurences of naskh and still explain how any Muslim will be able to reconcile that while maintaining their Muslim identity. I just don’t see it as being possible unless one does not believe the Qur’an are directly Allah’s words as revealed by Muhammad.

    Regards.

  174. awake Says:

    re: salahudin

    Aaaah. He is an atheist who engages in philospophical agnisticism for in his own words he cannot disprove the “giant pink uniciorn”. That was pretty funny.

    I have no animosity towards atheists, nor feel any threat by them. I tend to disagree with their “all religions are equally bad” argument, especially concerning the threat of a Christian theocracy being established in the US, but these are minor differences. I am more secular than Christian, in practice anyway.

    Eagle, pardon me for looking silly, but are you a Muslim? If so, why can’t you contribute to the discussion of my points about the Qur’an and abrogation?

    Robert Salaam is either not around, or not interested in responding.

    Regards.

  175. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    No I am a Christian American, White, Conservative, all things that most people hate. 😦 But at least they hate Islam more… That is wrong too.

    I mentioned the people I did because they either are or were Muslim. I emailed Robert so hopefully he will make an appearance. Robert is a devout Muslim. salahudin and in2thefray are apostates, but were Muslim so they are better equiped to answer your questions on Islam and the Quran than I am.

    I started this blog to point out Radical Islam, to both non-Muslims and Muslims, as the threat is equal to both, sometimes it appears the threat is greater towards Muslims. The reason I did the series of posts on bigots.. is for those who think all Muslims are either terrorists, or agree with the terrorists ideology, like elric66.

    This isn’t a hate blog, like some of the blogs out there. I post what the radicals say, so that ALL of us can see it. I don’t go to those websites normally although, I have used some from “Religion Of Peace”, mainly for the numbers. I am not trying to go into their blogs and tell them what idiots they are for believing the way that they do. I am only showing my opinion here, on my blog.

    In the coming weeks I will be posting on some of the comments on my other blog in an attempt to point out what I see as the problem on why we don’t hear enough from regular Muslims. I also intend to get back to my normal topic of radical Islam. I’m sure that some of the posts will cause others to object. But I can only do what I feel is right, and hope that people will view it with and open mind and continue to come back.

    What disturbs me, is the fact that my blogstat’s show most people land here and no where else. It hardly gives them an idea what I am about, but it does show what they are about.

  176. Eagle Says:

    salahudin,

    I don’t know if in2thefray is an apostate or not. But I like what he had to say. 😀

  177. Eagle Says:

    Awake,
    So I look smart, allow me to repost salahudin’s comments in my comment block 😀

    “Salahudin,
    where’s the evidence islam is peaceful?”

    let’s see…

    what DO you know about islam? basic tenets of islam are…? not violent. are they pro-peace? yes…

    okay.. what else? quranic verses?

    [42.40] And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust.

    [7.199] Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant.

    [24.22] And let not those of you who possess grace and abundance swear against giving to the near of kin and the poor and those who have fled in Allah’s way, and they should pardon and turn away. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [64.14] …and if you pardon and forbear and forgive, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [42.43] And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.

    [3.133] And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord; and a Garden, the extensiveness of which is (as) the heavens and the earth, it is prepared for those who guard (against evil).
    [3.134] Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
    [3.135] And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults– and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.

    how about an islamic sect that has a TRACK RECORD OF PEACE AND LOVE!????

    SUFISM:
    http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/04/05/how-islam-is-not-evil/

    as for EloisVs’s ludicrous quranic verses… allow me to demolish them

    he said:

    “Advocating theft;
    48:19 And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.”

    FIRST we put it in the CONTEXT of the verses above and below:

    [48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory,
    [48.19] And many acquisitions which they will take; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
    [48.20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path.

    THEN we look at the historical situation when it was “Revealed”, in order to put it in the correct historical context and hence not derive an arbitrary meaning from it:

    when the makkan pagans agreed to allow the muslims safe passage to their city for 10 years, this was what was meant by acquisitions, SINCE makkah (which literally translates to CENTER) was the center of A MAJOR TRADE ROUTE of that era.

    the rest of his verses can also be easily demolished… one just needs to be… ahem.. learned.

  178. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    LOL. That answers quite a bit. I only landed here because of your post at Jihad Watch. I would suggest however, going forward, that you learn more about Islam in general before falling into the trap that Islamic terrorism is completely outside the scope of true Islamic ideology. I personally don’t think that it is.

    Robert Spencer regularly echoes the sentiments that you put forth here at your blog. He is also very learned in the history of Islam, regularly quoting Islamic sources instead of his own conjecture.

    The sad part about it is he is routinely labeled a religious bigot because he is critical of Islam. It is a completely unfair and unfounded accusation, but there are those in the Islamic world that do not want any critical light shone upon their ideology.

    Elric66, who is a regular poster at Jihad Watch, almost certainly misunderstood who you were, but in his defense on this thread anyway, he asked some very basic questions that went unanswered and was dismissed as a bigot.

    I would also refrain from the use of the word “islamophobe”. It is a silly, over-used and out of context. In my estimation, on 9/10/01, Islamophobia did not exist.

    Good luck with your blog. I wish you well. I will drop by from time to time to say hello. Don’t fret over the answer to my questions about abrogation. I doubt any Muslim will actually try to answer it. It will be easier to dismiss me as a bigot. That seems to be the easy way out of answering anything.

    Peace

  179. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    Regarding salahudin’s verses, we all know they exist. I might suggest that you look into abrogation or nashk, more specifically, when it is believed that the sura’s were chronologically revealed to Muhammad. I have some links if you want them. Just say the word.

    There is a noticable change in Allah’s temperment historically. Originally, Allah forbade any violence against other faiths, then permitted defensive Jihad, and unfortunately, near the end, with the revelation of sura 9, mandated offensive jihad from all believers as a duty.

    I obviously believe that Islam was a creation of Muhammad, used to serve his historical purposes. But to me, to say that the ninth sura of the Qur’an isn’t true Islam, rings a bit hollow to me.

  180. Eagle Says:

    awake,
    Just so you know…
    I can GARANTEE that Elric66 didn’t misunderstand who I was!! I have another blog, it has the same posts as this one. He has spammed it with comments, he has totally disrespected me and my wishes until I had to ban him from the site. I plead with him for over a month. It was after that, when he blessed me with a lot of other people who think like him.

    He didn’t put up my blog address, because he understood me or liked what I had to say. He did it in hopes that others would pick up the slack from him being gone. He knows perfectly well what I think and why I do what I do. He attacked any and all Muslims who commented on my blog. He was extremely disrespectful when it wasn’t necessary. 😦 His questions were answered before. Answered by Muslims. Answered by me. He didn’t really want answers. His view was clear with his standard statement of “magical” when refering to moderate Muslims.

    Secondly, I don’t need to be an expert on Islam to write about radical Islam. I have friends who are expert that can answer those questions and I would rather that they do. I have already told you how and why I do what I do. Personally, I don’t feel I have the time to go out and become a religions major, I already have one in Robert Salaam.

    Your other questions do indeed need to be answered by someone who is well versed in Islam. Put your links up. I will look at them and in turn will email Robert about them. Also, maybe salahudin can say something about it.

    I have explained why I used the word Islamophobe, for the purpose of this series of articles, it is a bigot against anything Islamic. The word Islamophobe, is what Muslims use to describe bigots as well. There are bigots against all manner of things. In the case of this blog, it is Islam.

    I, as a Christian, do not believe the same things as Muslims. I have my own theory towards the faith. But, I have no problem seeing the difference between Islam and radical Islam.

    As a conservative, I can see the difference between most democratic lawmakers and say, Joe Liberman. Does that mean that I consider all other democrats traitors?? That is not meant to be answered, as a conservative you already know how I think in regards to politics. I was just trying to be funny. 😐 😛 😀

    You say good luck with your blog, like you don’t plan on returning. 😦 May I invite you to come back often?? You will see things here that you won’t see anywhere else.

    I use the words of the terrorists and terrorists supporters. I do that regular because I want Muslims to see it, to share it. I go to the Jihadist/Islamist blogs, and question them. Its amazing the stuff they tell you. They aren’t shy thats for sure.

  181. cerebate Says:

    Awake, Urban
    Im no Quran expert and the Quran *may* be violent , but I have neither the time nor the inclination to study it. So I cant say whether or not at its core Islam is a peaceful religion. I also dont care. I’d rather base my views on the muslims i have met and interracted with.

    Now a lot of muslims say Islam is a religion of peace, and you’ll try to prove it isn’t. You’ll try to portray that if people follow the word of Christ the world would be a better place.
    When i grew up , the only thing i knew about christianity was that people made the sign of the cross when they prayed, Christmas was jesus’ birthday and jesus preached love and forgiveness and turn the other cheek(this is the public face of christianity). Later I see that the bible has a lot more objectionable content, And i see sites online which say that in the gospel of Luke jesus said “”bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me.” 19:22-27 “.
    But now im old enough to say who cares, you take the good and discard the bad,any rational person would do that, and a 2000 year old book with various translations and interpretation is not going to be accurate.
    A lot of muslims are like that believe some bits ignore some. Trust me, ive grown up with christian, muslim, hindu an sikh friends.

    Awake: You say 9/11 is the turning point. Maybe it is for America. From where I come from we faced suicide bombers from 1980, and we’ve seen first hand what harsh , intolerant replies can do(kashmir). So yes I believe im more realistic than you are, I have been through Hindu-Muslim riots and i know the reason for them isn’t as simple as Islam is the most intolerant religion and the quran has passages of violence.

    Urban – If people followed the example of Christ, the world would be a better place. Yes it would , but people dont, not even the devout. Mohammed’s time was a different time. Dont judge him by todays sensibilities or do it uniformly for everyone and every religion- You’ll find that you’ll become an agnostic or an atheist.

  182. cerebate Says:

    Awake
    “The sad part about it is he[Robert Spencer] is routinely labeled a religious bigot because he is critical of Islam”
    I spent a week reading Spencer and JihadWatch. People do not call him a bigot because he is critical of Islam. They call him that because he is biased, publishes only one side of an issue, makes the problem verse (pun intended) and is really not much use in solving the problem at hand. The feeling i get when I read JihadWatch is that its designed to provoke right wing extremists, who duly do so (read the comments!).

  183. awake Says:

    Eagle, I never said I was leaving for good. I was defending elric66 on THIS thread for that is all I had to go by. He asked simple questions and received no reply. That is frustrating, but then again, I don’t know your history.

    Cerebate,

    I know you posted at Jihad Watch. You say Spencer isn’t labeled a bigot because he is critical of Islam, but rather he is biased. I’m not quite sure how to handle that accusation. He definately has an agenda. It is in the top left corner of his main page titled “Why Jihad Watch”.

    He is routinely called out as inaccurate and bigoted, yet no one seems to be able to or have the desire to prove him wrong. He offers to debate anyone, anytime. To me that sounds like a man who is confident in what he is saying.

    Neither you nor Eagle have any inclination to learn about the Qur’an, rather, accepting what it contains from Muslim sources, and what you are told. That is not the way to address Islam. You cannot say what true Islam versus radical Islam is if you have not bothered to explore the differences, if one actually exists.

    Let me tell you straight out. Militant Islamists have enjoyed that willful ignorance of their ideology in the past and continue to bank on just the same.

    Being fair and balanced, for fairness and balance sake alone does little to further the discussion that became an unfortunate reality to many in the US on 9/11.

  184. cerebate Says:

    Awake
    Yes i did read “Why Jihad Watch” and I still say biased(i didnt say prejudiced). He has a financial motivation in addition to any other motivations he might have. He is not objective (why didnt we see a post on jihad watch saying heres a ray of hope for the blog entry that eagle posted about demonstrations in karachi against extremism)

    I did see Robert debate on youtube and it’s just like any other politician. Repeats what he says ad infinitum, doesnt answer any of the opponents points. Makes outrageous statements like The crusades werent fought in the name of Christianity. My high school debates had better quality.

    “Neither you nor Eagle have any inclination to learn about the Qur’an, rather, accepting what it contains from Muslim sources, and what you are told”
    No , i dont believe the literal words are relevant. As before i have had muslim friends when i was growing up(I am not muslim). None of them tried to convert me, make me a second class citizen or kill me. You might say thats because they are not true followers of Islam. I believe its because they are.

    Undoubtedly there are Islamic radicals. I tend to believe they are stupid , bigoted, hateful @$$0’s and blaming it on Islam is really a pathetic excuse.

  185. Eagle Says:

    Awake,

    I totally agree with cerebate’s comments. As far as being fair and balanced, you will see it here more than else where and my blog is about radical Islam. I too have many Muslim friends and have none of the things with them as cerebate has mentioned. I learn from talking to them as well and from the mulititude I have met on the web. Their views are as varied as Christians.

    Would a devout Muslim put my blog put me on their blogroll?? In their blog about Islam?? Would Spencer put me in his blogroll?? Interesting questions huh?? What do you think??

  186. Eagle Says:

    Awake,
    If you were Elric, you would call me a “dhimmi” or a “useful idiot”. So what do you have to say about it??

  187. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    Your naivete is apparent. Understanding now that you are not a Muslim, the first question I have is WHERE DO YOU LIVE?

    If the answer is a western country, or more specifically as I surmise, the US, how can the fact that no Muslim you met in this western country tried to convert, subjagate or kill you have any relevance to the point I was making. Do you for a single solitary second think that this type of Islamic behavior is acceptable in the US or any western country? Please sir, give me a break. There is a noticable difference in Islamic countries currently, however.

    Your erroneous statement that, “No , i dont believe the literal words are relevant.” is the worst of validating points that you have ever put forth that I have witnessed. My goodness, you speak that non-Muslims ANYWHERE, might take the Qur’an lterally as the word of Allah, or God, if you like, has absolutely no merit to it. Of course non-Muslims do not believe in Allah or the Qur’an as the divine canonical text encompassing all faiths. You are no trailblazer in that area, that’s for sure.

    The critical flaw in that argument is obviously, that you are NOT a Muslim, and quite frankly, not qualified to speak on behalf of Muslims who may take the Qur’an’s words literally, approximatel 1.4 billion plus, for you yourself do not even know what those words are. Many Muslims think the Qur’an is Allah’s direct words. You are not a Muslim but you think that YOUR belief about the Qur’an has any weight in the Islamic community?

    Preposterous.

    Throw in your insult that you had better quality debates in your high school only furthers my validation. You are simply uninformed about Islam in totality in my estimation. Unwillful ignorance it seems to me. There is a lot of that going around. For example’s sake I offer this: I had many friends in HS who were football players. That being said, those friendships did not teach me nearly enough about the game of football itself. That I had to learn on my own, from many outside sources and hard work.

    It is apparent that you have done none of that in regards to Islam. You sound relatively young, just my guess, and so be it. That in itself, is not a fault, just an observation. One that leads me to believe that you may not quite know what you are saying you believe.

    Regarding Robert Spencer (your accusations):

    Spencer has financial motivations?

    He is not objective?

    Outrageous statements like the Crusades were fought in the name of Christianity? (I’m sure you meant “defense of” here), which happens to be true.

    Doesn’t answer any of the opponenets voices?

    You must be kidding.

    I absolutely challenge you to back up ANY of those statements about Robert Spencer with ANYTHING substantial, once again, not your strong suit it seems, for that involves work.

    How about atarting with my initial question about abrogation in the Qur’an. A simple google search will suffice, hopefully, not for Wikipedia. Do you even know what the term means?

    Sometimes, the “ray of hope” you are looking for is not manifest, and certainly not the onus of Robert Spencer.

    Please provide the link for Robert’s youtube debate, if you would be so kind. I would greatly desire to see it, and am surprised that I am not aware of it.

    Regards.

  188. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    I can certainly understand Elric’s frustration with what I have seen here. I would not call you a dhimmi or a useful idiot, but I would certainly warn you of that end.

    Guys, you MUST understand. I am not your enemy. I only want you to learn more about the ideology that you have already partitioned as true versus radical. I think it is a mistake.

    Whoever puts you on their blogroll has nothing to reveal about the host. Fair and balanced is NOT something that must be maintained in every forum. You don’t see pedophiles complaining that sites against pedophelia are bigoted because they are not fair and balanced. There is an obvious reason for that.

    Eagle, you seem like a great guy, honestly. I offer you my services, indefinately. I want to help you understand the threat to which you refer to as “radical Islam”. I will not promote hate towards, for I feel none myself towards Muslims as a group. I am however, quite critical of Islam.

    Remember my initial statement about individual Muslims. There any many good ones. I know a few myself, BUT, that does not give any insight into the ideology Islam for the various reasons that I have stated previously.

    I am ready to debate Muslims here on this site. I only ask for the opportunity to do so, respectfully, under your supervision.

    You have nothing to lose and potentially, everything to gain.

    What say you?

  189. cerebate Says:

    The critical flaw in that argument is obviously, that you are NOT a Muslim, and quite frankly, not qualified to speak on behalf of Muslims
    How true. Now if only you practice what you preached!

  190. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    I do not take the words of the Qur’an literally at all. Unfortunately, your rebuttal falls miserably short. Let me simplify it for you in two questions.

    Do you believe that an untold number of the world’s Muslims view the Qur’an as the direct immmutable words of Allah, hence divine?

    If the answer to the question above is yes (which I am sure you will agree with), Do you understand via abrogation, just what is mandated by Allah of all it’s believers in the canonical text itself?

    If your answer to question number one is no, then I will remain silent. I will fully understand if your answer to number one is yes, but you have no answer to question number two.

    Two simple questions. It is not like the Qur’an is a classified document, you know.

  191. cerebate Says:

    Awake
    I have spent majority of my life in India(some in London,UK and am currently in the USA) and we have had our fair share of Islamic extremists who havent hesitated in preaching hatred, look it up. We’ve had suicide bombers and chain bomb blasts and riots. I speak from first hand experience, i was there when both communities rioted.
    I have christian friends who have worked in the Gulf , Islamic countries and they believe much the same that I do. I would bet however that you have lived a life mostly surrounded by other probably white americans. That you do not have a single muslim person you can call friend. That your expertise in the Quran and Islam is based on copying pasting verses from the Internet and passing of theories from people like Robert Spencer as your own and then thinking that consituted a lot of work, which us young people wont do.
    I have to say I did burst out laughing at the “Im not qualified to speak for muslims”. Too true, im not qualified to speak for them and Im not qualified to speak for Islam. But its look in the mirror time for you.
    Regarding Robert Spencer
    a. Do you deny he has a financial motivation? It is apparent he does, he publishes books on the topic and gets royalties from them does he not?is this substantial enough?, this is not an accusation, it merely shows bias. You seem to think that saying robert has a financial motivation = robert lies for profit, an accusation that i did not make. Bias is important because you have to read biased reports more carefully.
    b. Outrageous statements like the Crusades were fought in the name of Christianity – Was there on a TV interview cant remember the exact name, its there on you tube. He said that whenever atrocities were committed by christians they werent done using their religion/bible as the justification and no one used the bible to justify the crusades, and that islamic terrorists always refers to the quran/Islam. Im sure this sounds familiar to you. Is this substantial enough?
    c. Doesn’t answer any of the opponents points – Debate with some Indian guy with the surname d’souza(dinesh i think, he was pathetic as well) for some conservative american society. Since you have shown you are technically inclined using words like google and wikipedia , i’ll let you search for it. Let me know if you have any difficulties. The outcome however would be a matter of opinion though i guess. Every single jihadwatch faithful would say how robert demolished the other guy. Neutrals would look mildly perplexed and shake their heads in sorrow at declining standards of debate.
    You can find more , theres a Robert Spencer on islam : Refuted on you tube as well. Not compelling but enough to show that robert hasn’t mentioned the whole truth.
    As far as the ray of hope goes, this is what i expect from unbiased , objective coverage. It is not Robert’s onus, but do not expect me to consider him unbiased or objective, if he doesnt point out both sides.
    And as far as abrogation, wikipedia goes , you do not seem to understand my position that very few people go through their religious texts with a magnifying glass, and follow it to the letter.
    So i repeat i dont care what the Quran says, It only matters how muslims behave. You can prove to your hearts content that Islam is violent , That the quran is violent. It doesnt make the slightest bit of difference if the muslims dont follow those verses or follow ones in the Quran that contradict them. (Cruel verse count 857 verses- 2.5% in the bible and 494 verses -7.92% in the quran , who gives a damn). People like Salahudin keep giving you counter verses which you ignore or reply back with more verses, to which they ignore or counter with other verses. To me thats pointless. I find all religion illogical. i cant see how all humanity was created from Adam and Eve. I cant see how someone can be the son of god and god at the same time. I cant see how the old testament had a vengeful god and the new testament a loving god. But a lot of christians do, they find it logical, beautiful and internally consistent. I’d say it’s the same for the vast majority of peaceful muslims. You find it difficult to believe, they dont.
    So if you want me to agree that the Quran has a lot of harmful stuff, go ahead assume that I do. It makes no difference to any of the opinions I have expressed.
    Naive i might be. What do you think you are? Answer honestly now.

  192. awake Says:

    Well, cerebate, since I had to endure that moral pontification by you, I will make a few quick points.

    First, everyone has an agenda and life isn’t fair and balanced. Spencer is no different, but that does not make him incorrect in his assertions, any of them. Dinseh D’Souza is not a good example. He says the cultural left and American decadence is the impetus behind 9/11.

    Second, you don’t read or try to read very well. I offered NO Qur’anic passages in this thread as a rebuttal to salahudin, but hey, don’t let any facts get in the way of your position, as it were.

    Third, and most importantly, YOU DIDN’T EVEN ATTEMPT TO ANSWER THE SIMPLE FIRST PART OF THE TWO PART QUESTION I OFFERED. If this is what you call intelligent discourse, maybe I should seek engagement elsewhere.

    Your atheist principles are duly noted and I have no problem with them, as was previously relayed in this thread by me. I know you hate to read, so just take my word for it. It seems that you have found a haven here where religious moral equivalency is the order of the day. Have at it for that has nothing to do with why I am here.

    Please do remember, that your personal disinterest in religion in it’s entirety, coupled with your apparent intellectual laziness regarding Islam does a disservice to you and your argument, not mine.

    Good evening.

  193. awake Says:

    Me naive? Answered honestly in a word………no.

    You actually didn’t deserve an answer, but I thought I might set a good example and oblige anyway, you know, answering direct questions without all the histrionics.

  194. Eagle Says:

    I hate to interrupt a good debate, but…

    awake, I will email Robert with your questions, I am sure that when he has time he will come here and answer you.

    I am going to bed, play nice… 😀

  195. Tim Says:

    cerebate wrote:

    “Again I wonder why people are so interested in splitting hairs over what the Quran(or any religious text) does or does not say?
    Why not deal with the people practising the religion and come to some form of acceptable compromise?
    Why call the people who are likely to come to some sort of understanding with you, not true muslims? What gives you the right?”

    What gives anybody the right cerebate? Terrorists claim that they are Muslims who are waging a Holy Jihad in the name of Allah against the west. Others say that Islam is Peaceful. So which are Muslims and which are lying?

    Who has the right to say that one group is telling the truth about Islam and the other group is lying? Allah? He has not said much about it directly, so maybe we should be looking in the Qur’an and trying to better understand what it says so we can have an honest discussion about it.

    So many people use the peaceful verses in the Qur’an as if that is all the Qur’an preaches about. Tell me koranist, is there anything in the Qur’an that you know of that might be taken as an instruction to kill non-believers? If you don’t I would like to point you to a few. Stop with the rhetoric and please lets have an honest conversation.

    Sincerely,
    Tim

  196. Shiva Says:

    After 1400 years of Islam and here are still big discussion as to whether Islam is peaceful or not, seems to speak volumes that Islam is not so peaceful

    Eagle
    I am a Christian and try to carry myself as one.

    OK Eagle as a Christian, what do you say about all the churches that are being destroyed daily in Kosovo, and Indonesia.

    OK Eagle as a Christian, what do you say about all the Christians being killed through-out the islamic world.

    If it is bigotry to speak out against these crimes, and the ideology behind them, then you surely have a twisted mind.

  197. urban Says:

    Hi Eagle,if you get a minute pop over to
    http://www.uppompeii.uppompeii.com
    An interesting article by AjukDD, regarding the destruction of Europe. Just one man’s opinion, admittedly, but should be of interest to you, as I believe the USA is just a few years behind Europe on the road to islamisation.
    Personally, I believe that either Sweden or Holland, will fall to islam first. When that situation is reached I expect that will be seen as a wake up call for the rest of Europe, and a bloody civil war will ensue Many people on both sides will die, and islam will be removed from Europe. I hope I’m wrong (about the war, not the removal of islam) and the blame will lie at the feet of the vote grubbing left wing politicians and the liberals who shriek” Racist! Bigot!” everytime someone questions the objectives of islam.

  198. Eagle Says:

    Shiva,

    Why don’t you take a little time to read my blog before you criticize it. This blog is about Radical Islam, I have been here a month. There are many things I plan on getting to. I agree that there have been terrible things done in the name of Islam. I don’t think it is all of Islam.

    A bigot is defined as a prejudiced person, who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. You come here and spew, you go to your blog and call me “clueless”, why, because I put up a post about Muslims protesting against radical Islam.

    I don’t believe that all Muslims are evil, period. I don’t believe that all Muslims agree with the terrorist ideology. I have shown that in the last several posts. Did you actually read any of them?? Do you even know that this blog is about radical Islam??

  199. Eagle Says:

    urban,

    If you will watch this blog in the coming weeks, you may find some things that will interest you. I have my own idea’s of what is going to happen in the future and plan on getting to them soon. I’m sure it will open another can of worms when I do, if not here, than on my other blog.

    That’s all I can tell you about it right now, I don’t want to ruin the surprise.

  200. Eagle Says:

    Has anybody read one of my most recent posts?? “In Memorial, Never Forget” Can you please tell me what you think of it?? Personally I think it is a powerful message.

  201. Shiva Says:

    I asked two very important questions above

  202. awake Says:

    Shiva,

    No one answers questions here. I am discovering it to be a colossal waste of time to ask them.

  203. in2thefray Says:

    Shiva: For 1400 years most people had very little to do w/Islam. Keeping in mind that the Crusades was a two way street the growth and shrinkage of the Caliphate is pretty clear. The fact that this blogs host is looking at a point does the thread actually need to grow ? He wrote one thing perhaps as he’s hinted future posts will look at other things.As far as more modern times and persecutions people should care for sure.Per the post plot though is EVERY muslim doing these things ? The answer is no ! How do I know ? If it were yes we’d all be dead.
    Awake: previous comments have alluded to the growing reformation dawning upon Islam. It is with that you will see better readings of the quran and the repeal (abrogation) of the things the bigoted extremists use to do what they do.

  204. salahudin Says:

    I’m not sure who you were addressing, “awake”, but if it was directed at me, i’ll answer to the best of my knowledge:

    “What is your opinion of abrogation and how should contradictory sentiments found in the Qur’an be resolved?”

    my opinion? why would you want MY opinion anyways? i’m not muslim. but as far as abrogation is concerned: some muslims believe in it, some don’t.

    The ones who don’t, don’t see those contradictions… through creative interpretation. even sophistry! 😛 you’ll have to ask them for specifics though…

    “I also made a statement that many Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the direct, immutable words of Allah. Is this true in your opinion?”

    In most muslims minds, it is. but then again, most muslims have NOT read the quran either! 😛

    “Where is any contemporary example of Christian violence as supported by Christian texts?”

    I can answer this in a number of ways:

    1- Where is non-contemporary TERRORISM in the name of islam before the iranian revolution? there is hardly any… therefore, islam isn’t the problem, it’s the politics.

    2- Christian violence eh? Africa comes to mind… check Nigeria’s history maybe? Lebanon in 1982? Branch Davidians in the US? The Sword? The Order? The Covenant? many many more… you don’t hear of them often because news like that just doesn’t sell…

    3- Islamist violence is as supported by Islamic texts, as is Islamic charity and peace… it depends on your political interpretation. Out of context verses are the KEY to making islam sound violent, when in a progressive interpretation of the text, it really isn’t any more violent than christianity.

    4- Not a single living christian is really “christian” if you were to literally interpret the bible, the way some unfriendly critics of islam insist the quran ought to be interpreted… therefore christians are not violent because their religion has had 2000 years to evolve.. whereas islam has not because it is going through its own dark ages… it’s only 1400 something years old – when christianity was that “young”, have you seen how THEY interpreted what it meant to be christian???

    “We see examples of Muslim violence by those who claim it as obligatory, a mandate from the Qur’an on a daily basis.”

    I see counter interpretation by modern muslims who insist such islamists are un-islamic.

    “Be critical of Christianity. It, like everything else deserves it’s fair share, just like Islam does.”

    yup. agreed.

  205. salahudin Says:

    oh and one last thing, a lot of muslims these days DON’T believe the entire quran is the infallible word of god.

    rational minded modern muslims do not accept the quran in it entirety. in my experience they fall in the following categories:

    1- those who are afraid of losing their faith, yet cannot bring themselves to accept some “dark age” verses, so they avoid thinking about them and just say “i am unsure about this”

    2- those who are somewhat braver and say “some parts of the quran are unacceptable” (note: they don’t say “i oppose it!” – they just find it “unacceptable”)

    3- those that find it unacceptable AND oppose it

    usually people who have the WRONG understanding of what it means to be muslim, immediately ask how such people remain muslim.

    to them i say, the same way as many christians i’ve met in this country who insist the bible should be taken “with a pinch of salt”, the same christians who agree that the bible is full of violence, the same christians who don’t believe that belief in the bible is necessary, as long as you follow the basic tenets of the religion itself: 10 commandments / jesus as your saviour, etc…

    in islamic terms that would be: belief in the 5 pillars of islam OR in only the FIRST pillar of islam.

    which actually makes sense because even in EXTREME ORTHODOX islamic sects, conversion TO islam merely requires declaring to three muslim witnesses that there is no god but allah and muhammad is his prophet.

    if you walk the streets of pakistan and talk to muslims there, they’ll tell you how the clergy have “ruined” islam by making it so complicated…

    whether or not they are right, is besides the point. what *I* understand that to mean is that they don’t believe in all the practices the orthodoxy insists… and yet they are proud and perhaps even “boastful” muslims.. 🙂

  206. cerebate Says:

    Tim
    Its sort of asking which is true christianity, protestantism, catholicism, or the various variants of protestantism. It may make for an interesting conversation, but ultimately christianity will be judged by the way christians behave not by the fine grained writing in the scripture, will it not?
    Shiva, Urban, Tim
    Noone will call you a bigot or other insults when you point to an incident and say look the muslims hurt/killed someone. We will join you in condemnation.
    Shiva I as a non christian would say , I hope those responsible are bought to justice and these acts should cease as soon as a possible. A true christian would probably have to say “forgive them father, for they know not what they do”
    Does that answer your question?
    You might be called a bigot when you say all of Islam is bad (instead of some verses), or the west has a lot to fear from muslims (instead of radicals) , or judge the majority based on the actions of the few.
    Theres a comment on the other blog by Ee Doh Moh
    “Islam is the Spirit of Anti Christ …” do you think this view is bigoted or not? Do you agree with it?

  207. cerebate Says:

    awake
    which of your questions did I not answer? Or is it that if the answer is not to your liking , you take the question as unanswered?
    Still struggling with the youtube search functionality?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON9QjE0tLZ4 – time line 8:20 robert says christian armies in the crusades didnt use christian scripture to justify their actions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-G-GT2gMoE Debate between dinesh souza and robert spencer. Both of them debate like politicians(this is an insult)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na7ofI4MoLA Robert spencer refuted. Not so convincing but enough proof that robert does not tell the whole truth. Again i find this i quote some verses, you respond with counter verses, i counter with counter counter verses and so on a waste of time , .
    I have already mentioned proof that robert has a financial motivation(via his books)
    Have i answered your challenge? Now what? or should you change your nickname to asleep?

  208. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    The value of YOU answering the challenge to your own accusations, via a simple youtube search as I had requested, is worth it’s weight in gold regarding your accusations and presuppositions of Robert Spencer.

    By the way, it is Dinesh D’Souza, again, for I am sure I referred to him as such in this very thread as a reponse to you.

    At least you got the spelling of Robert’s name correct, and that in my book, is a good start.

    As far as your retort of:

    “Have i answered your challenge? Now what? or should you change your nickname to asleep?”

    No and no, for brevity, is the only answer that I can give at this time.

  209. Elric66 Says:

    2- Christian violence eh? Africa comes to mind… check Nigeria’s history maybe? Lebanon in 1982? Branch Davidians in the US? The Sword? The Order? The Covenant? many many more… you don’t hear of them often because news like that just doesn’t sell…

    Really digging deep arent you? Why is it that Islam that is the only “religion” that spawns so much violence??

  210. awake Says:

    Salahudin,

    Thanls for replying.

    You wrote:

    “Not a single living christian is really “christian” if you were to literally interpret the bible, the way some unfriendly critics of islam insist the quran ought to be interpreted… therefore christians are not violent because their religion has had 2000 years to evolve.. whereas islam has not because it is going through its own dark ages… it’s only 1400 something years old – when christianity was that “young”, have you seen how THEY interpreted what it meant to be christian???”

    I have zero interest in the religious moral equivalency argument. Currently the difference in the degree of the threat that Christianity and Islam poses could not be any more pronounced. This equivalency argument is a staple for the atheistic point of view. Atheists don’t trouble me at all, but there fallacy of trying to show moral equivalence does little to address Islam as it is currently being applied today.

    The reformation that you speak of in Islam, that will occur sometime in the future, in your estimation, also does little to safeguard the West asgainst it today. I also believe the Islamic concept of the Qur’an being divine is a most problematic obstacle to any meaningful reform. That I believe is the biggest difference comparative to the Christian texts, and that is what I believe will keep Islam on it’s present course, as it has for the past 1400 years since it’s inception.

    I acknowledge that many Muslims do not follow the Qur’an, and that many have not even read it, but my point has nothing to do with Muslims and everything to do with Islam. There are boatloads of cultural Muslims, I am sure, but to simply dismiss the pious, those who follow the mandates in the Qur’an, word for word as they were and are still told, as “radicals”, is folly, in my estimation.

  211. salahudin Says:

    awake: your response is only on a partial part of ONE of my replies to you…

    😦

    and there you were, complaining no one is replying to your questions… i think i sufficiently replied, hm?

    “I also believe the Islamic concept of the Qur’an being divine is a most problematic obstacle to any meaningful reform.”

    I don’t see how belief in the quran being divine is really any of non-muslims’ business.

    perhaps you meant believing in a radical interpretation of the quran is an obstacle to reform… and that i agree with. but i’m sure the moderates will win it out, the way luther did over the catholic church… though i hope it won’t be as violent.

    as for moral equivalency – you SHOULD be interested in it since it IS a good argument. it has acceptable premises, a logical structure and a decent conclusion.

    i don’t see on what grounds you can reject that argument. give me a specific reason… because insisting the threat from christianity is less than from islam is NOT accurate because:

    1- heard of christian zionists? neat little bunch giving money to bring about friggin armageddon!
    2- christians TODAY aren’t as big a threat because of a MINORITY of islamic terrorists that do NOT represent all of islam..
    3- you insist islam teaches violence through its text, and i pointed out so does christianity… but christians by large are not portrayed as terrorist in the media and christian terrorism is NOT as large as islamist terrorism… however, this shows that the relationship between islamist terrorism and islam itself is weak… since the equivalent christian verses don’t give a similar terrorist product.

    therefore islamist terrorism must have a non-islamic root, while they use the veneer of islam to give themselves religo-political appeal.

    THIS is corroborated by the statements of almost all terrorists who give SECULAR and POLITICAL reasons for their terrorism:

    “We bombed the british because of their support to the US invasion of Iraq”

    “we bombed the US for supporting Israel”

    “we attacked israel for oppressing palestinians”

    “We attacked pakistan for supporting the US”

    “We attacked muslims for supporting non-muslims”

    obviously these chumps are attacking muslims, non-muslims, americans, non-americans.. everyone who opposes their POLITICAL ideology.

    within that, there is MORE evidence that terrorists are driven by politics and less by religion.

    how else can you explain why MORE violent biblical verses don’t produce MORE christian terrorists than they already do???

    if you say “oh that’s in the interpretation! you are skewing christianity’s message!” my friend… that’s exactly what most muslims say about islam…

    🙂

  212. salahudin Says:

    “Why is it that Islam that is the only “religion” that spawns so much violence??”

    ? i just gave you evidence to the contrary and your BEST defense was “oh you must have researched that”…

    well, yes i DID research it.. BY GOING TO COLLEGE!!!

    heard of it? it’s an institution where you can learn all about the world from CREDIBLE SOURCES rather than ONLINE.

  213. Elric66 Says:

    I learn about Islam by its text, its history and its prophet of doom.

    And I saw no evidence, just rambling about obscure groups while Muslims are blowing up everyday.

    So why is it that Islam is the only religion that spawns so much violence. Perhaps because thats what Islam is.

  214. salahudin Says:

    elric, i also posted some interesting quran verses that you ignore.

    tell us all why you ignored them… 😛 please?

  215. salahudin Says:

    anyways, here is a nice perspective on christianity for you and awake:

    http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html

    20 reasons to leave christianity. by Chaz Bufe

    here’s the list
    1. Christianity is based on fear
    2. Christianity preys on the innocent
    3. Christianity is based on dishonesty
    4. Christianity is extremely egocentric
    5. Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
    6. Christianity breeds authoritarianism
    7. Christianity is cruel
    8. Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
    9. Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
    10. Christianity produces sexual misery
    11. Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
    12. Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
    13. Christianity depreciates the natural world
    14. Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
    15. Christianity sanctions slavery
    16. Christianity is misogynistic
    17. Christianity is homophobic
    18. The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ’s teachings
    19. The Bible is riddled with contradictions
    20. Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions

    it seems, lord vader, that christianity can be argued against using BETTER arguments than the ones you use against islam!

    😛

    personally i think they’re stretching the truth a bit… just like you stretch the lies about islam. 🙂

  216. salahudin Says:

    but coming back to you ignoring the quranic verses i posted.. TELL US all why you ignored them… and continue to do so!

    explain yourself. spotlight’s on you…:)

  217. Elric66 Says:

    Are you refering to Mecca verses that are abrogated by the Medina ones?

    I don’t see how belief in the quran being divine is really any of non-muslims’ business.

    Actually it is. If its divine according to Islam, then Islam itself cant be reformed. Plus Muslim blowing up in the name of the Qur’an is our business.

  218. Elric66 Says:

    Chritians dont blow themselves up per teachings of the Bible and Jesus unlike Islam which is violent and intolerant in nature. Nice try

  219. Shiva Says:

    Islamophobia, Is a sympton of a healthy mind

  220. Elric66 Says:

    Shiva,

    LOL. So true.

  221. salahudin Says:

    “its divine according to Islam, then Islam itself cant be reformed.”

    that’s the most idiotic statement i’ve heard in a while…

    all religions are man made and CAN be reformed. wasn’t christianity similarly reformed?

    shiva: “sympton” is a symptom of an illiterate mind that thinks islamophobia is “normal”.

  222. Elric66 Says:

    According to Islam, the Qur’an is an eternal book of Allah past down to Mohammed. So if the Qur’an is the word of Allah, it can not be reformed. I guess you didnt learn that in college, huh?

  223. urban Says:

    Salahudin, its pointless to keep on about the peaceful verses, we all KNOW they have been abrogated by the violent ones.
    If I did enough research about Ted Bundy, I could write a book about him, ignoring the fact that he slaughtered dozens of innocent girls, and paint him in a good light. Just the way muslims and their useful idiots talk about mohammed. Whatever way you look at it, he was a mass murderer, a warlord, pedofile, mysogonist, liar and a thief.
    Its is quite clear to anyone who has any sort of a logical brain, that islam was made up by him, as he went along, to justify and condone his behaviour.

  224. salahudin Says:

    no, i learned that in life.

    i also learned that a lot of muslims disagree with that…

    do you apply the same criticism to christianity though?

    oh wait let me guess, you don’t think it’s ALL the word of god, right? 😛

    but muslims can’t think the same way about the quran… right?

    😛

    go back to high school.

  225. in2thefray Says:

    Is it the book or the actions of the readers ? In the beginning… Christianity was viewed as a direct threat to existing governments and there was violence. Pre or post Guttenberg the Bible has been used to stamp the ok on everything from killing,slavery to war.Is it the book or the actions ? I don’t know how old some of these commentors are but what are some of the earliest Islam violence acts ? Achille Loro ? Israel ? Egypt,Lockerbie ? Earlier ? Is the violence you see today from AQ,Muslim Brotherhood etc. the actors or the book ?

  226. Elric66 Says:

    in2thefray

    Just tell me this. Was Mohammed more like Jesus or Osama?

  227. in2thefray Says:

    Wow now II know what Shiva and Awake felt. Ya ask questions and you get asked a question. It’s only my opinion but here it is. Mohammed was a human who served as a prophet for a people. He’s not like either (again imo). In truth a better comparison set might be Buddha and John Smith. I’ll let you think on that.

  228. Elric66 Says:

    And as for the Muslim brotherhood and such, its the book. Its always that unholy book. Well and their war mongering prophet’s life.

    Even as you claim is true about the Bible, you dont see Christians acting like Muslims, do you?

  229. in2thefray Says:

    And so is the chasm between us. It’s the people,it’s always the unholy people. Whether it’s Islamist nut jobs attacking a nightclub in Bali or a panel of Cardinals torturing people who were as equally innocent.
    Do I see Christians acting like Muslims ? Sometimes. I see people that care about their family and neighbors. I also see people that hate because of how and who they pray to. The color of their skin and the places they live.

  230. Elric66 Says:

    Mohammed was an Islamic nutjob. You should actually learn about the guy. How he was a war monger, bigot, pedophile. I leave anything out?

  231. salahudin Says:

    muhammad was a nice guy, loving and peaceful. honest and caring… according to muslims.

    so if they believe he was nice, what’s YOUR problem with it? why do you insist he was nasty? oh that’s because you’re a bigot. my bad… sorry for asking

  232. in2thefray Says:

    Historical accounts speak of Mohammed having headaches before he died. Imagine the possibilities of a tumour meaning he was legally insane.That he fought people and propelled his and his followers beliefs forward well in the cold manner of history I can’t condemn that.Way off post but to ilustrate the history angle. George Washington was inept under the British losing a lot of people in battle. He also played a role in the first use of “biological warfare”. Smith btw was many things. Early Mormonism= separatists,polygamists,and rewriters of history to achieve their goal. Kicked out of other States ending up in Utah.Jehovah Witnesses. Blatant rewriters of history and scam artists.I’m done perhaps I’ll return.For you and me we’ll have to agree to disagree me thinks…

  233. Elric66 Says:

    muhammad was a nice guy, loving and peaceful. honest and caring… according to muslims.

    LOL Thats funny. You do stand up as well?

    That he fought people and propelled his and his followers beliefs forward well in the cold manner of history I can’t condemn that.

    I guess you cant if you think of him as a war monger and imperialist. Now if he is suppose to be a peaceful man of God, well yes you can condem him for it. So which was he?

  234. Eagle Says:

    DAMN, I come back from a bunch of errands, and I see Elric blowing up my blog again.

    As I have just logged on I haven’t read what he said yet. Hopefully he is not being a jerk. I will read them later as I need to get todays post out.

  235. salahudin Says:

    yes elric tell us what was he then?

    according to islamic sources, he cared for the people who hated him.

    according to the same islamic sources, he was a violent person…

    so on what basis do you insist the latter and not the former?

    on the basis of islamophobiaAAaAaA 😛

    eagle, elric’s just trolling. i’m having fun with him though

  236. Elric66 Says:

    I forgot Eagle, the Golden Rule only applies to me. Others can say whatever they want about me.

  237. awake Says:

    salahudin,

    I thanked you for replying. I only responded to points that I deemed relevant. I did not see a specific question addressed to me.
    you wrote:

    “and there you were, complaining no one is replying to your questions… i think i sufficiently replied, hm”

    Once again, I thanked you for your reply, and yes no one before you would answer any of my questions.

    Knowing that you are an apostate from Islam, I understand your unwillingness to explore the tenets of Islam, most notably those found in the Qur’an’s 9th sura. Your family members are still Muslims, if I recall correctly. The religious moral equivalence issue, a main point for atheists, does little to further the debate and inquiry into what Eagle deems this site to be….against “radical” Islam. This discussion is about the here and the now.

    you wrote:

    “I don’t see how belief in the quran being divine is really any of non-muslims’ business.”

    This was an unfortunate statement. It is similar to what we hear from Islamic militants all the time. Things like “passages taken out of context”, that “you can’t understand the Qur’an unless you read it in arabic”, and “the Qur’an is full of compassion and is the religion of peace”. None of my business??

    You then went on and wrote:

    “Perhaps you meant believing in a radical interpretation of the quran is an obstacle to reform… and that i agree with. but i’m sure the moderates will win it out, the way luther did over the catholic church… though i hope it won’t be as violent.”

    Hope is a great thing, not necessarily a staple for atheists, but whatever. Hope doesn’t feed or clothe myself or my kids either.

    The simplest and most direct question that I have for you, if you could try to answer is how you can validate your claim that the jihadist interpretation of the Qur’an is radical?

  238. Elric66 Says:

    Im sure ted Bundy was a nice guy sometimes too. But Ill judge Ted Bundy on his killing of women.

    Same as judging Mohammed for killing, rampaging, sex with little girls etc.

  239. awake Says:

    salahudin,

    I thanked you for replying. I only responded to points that I deemed relevant. I did not see a specific question addressed to me.
    you wrote:

    “and there you were, complaining no one is replying to your questions… i think i sufficiently replied, hm”

    Once again, I thanked you for your reply, and yes no one before you would answer any of my questions.

    Knowing that you are an apostate from Islam, I understand your unwillingness to explore the tenets of Islam, most notably those found in the Qur’an’s 9th sura. Your family members are still Muslims, if I recall correctly. The religious moral equivalence issue, a main point for atheists, does little to further the debate and inquiry into what Eagle deems this site to be….against “radical” Islam. This discussion is about the here and the now.

    you wrote:

    “I don’t see how belief in the quran being divine is really any of non-muslims’ business.”

    This was an unfortunate statement. It is similar to what we hear from Islamic militants all the time. Things like “passages taken out of context”, that “you can’t understand the Qur’an unless you read it in arabic”, and “the Qur’an is full of compassion and is the religion of peace”. None of my business??

    You then went on and wrote:

    “Perhaps you meant believing in a radical interpretation of the quran is an obstacle to reform… and that i agree with. but i’m sure the moderates will win it out, the way luther did over the catholic church… though i hope it won’t be as violent.”

    Hope is a great thing, not necessarily a staple for atheists, but whatever. Hope doesn’t feed or clothe myself or my kids either.

    The simplest and most direct question that I have for you, if you could try to answer is how you can validate your claim that the jihadist interpretation of the Qur’an is radical?

    Thanks in advance.

  240. Elric66 Says:

    Its working Awake

  241. awake Says:

    salahudin,

    I did already thank you for replying. Anyway, you wrote:

    “I don’t see how belief in the quran being divine is really any of non-muslims’ business.”

    That was an unfortunate statement. It sounds eerily similar to Islamic militants who often say that non-Muslims can’t understand the Qur’an outside of the Arabic language and are regularly accused of taking passages out of context.

    None of my business? The Qur’an is certainly not a classified document.

    Also, you wrote:

    “Perhaps you meant believing in a radical interpretation of the quran is an obstacle to reform… and that i agree with. but i’m sure the moderates will win it out, the way luther did over the catholic church… though i hope it won’t be as violent.”

    Well salahudin, 1400 plus years and counting does not make me feel overly confident and hope is not a staple for atheists, in my opinion.

    However, the most basic of questions that I pose to you or anyone else is how do you know that the current jihadists are following a “radical” interpretation of the Qur’an. Where do their actions diverge from the text or from mainstream interpretation by Islamic scholars that villify the violent, intolerant passages in it?

    Can you substantiate that point or a “radical” interpretation?

  242. cerebate Says:

    Awake
    It is your challenge i responded to
    “I absolutely challenge you to back up ANY of those statements about Robert Spencer with ANYTHING substantial, once again, not your strong suit it seems, for that involves work.” I believe i have done that for every point I raised. the only comeback you have is i spelt Robert’s name correctly and that everyone has an agenda! I

    I did however miss your post sorry for that
    “Do you believe that an untold number of the world’s Muslims view the Qur’an as the direct immmutable words of Allah, hence divine?”
    Yes.(untold is any number between 1 and the maximum number of muslims i suppose so i cant see how anyone could answer anything but yes.) Note that the most people can rationalise any inconsistency between theory and practise, as i have previously pointed out that i find some christian(and hindu) beliefs puzzling but the believers dont without giving an answer beyond “you must have faith”

    Do you understand via abrogation, just what is mandated by Allah of all it’s believers in the canonical text itself?
    Kind of yes.There is what the jihadwatch folks believe and there are varied interpretations by many Islamic scholars which offer a different interpretation(look it up!), but let me assume for a moment that your interpretation is correct. I still say it doesnt matter since most muslims do not practise what you say allah has commanded them to do. You have multiple countries which have Islamic majority rule. If your interpretation is the accurate one , then pray tell why are there some moderately progressive Islamic countries(to be sure some like saudi arabia support your argument) ? Why is Iraq more terrorist like now with American intervention than when it was ruled with an iron fist by a muslim(I do not support any form of dictatorship)

    You also mention how 9/11 changed everything…but Islam hasnt changed over the years. Why did this abrogation become such a big deal now?. Various islamic scholars have pointed out that christian and hindu communities survived under islamic law, but some Islamic communities were fully wiped out under christian law (a long time ago to be sure, but Islam and the quran havent changed have they? This isnt a moral equivalence argument , just that if you are right about Islam then every community ruled under islam should have been wiped out or should be paying a lot more taxes irrespective of what osama says)

    Yes i know , its more relevant to today because of the rising terrorist wave. But here’s the thing, Im from India, and the terrorist problem in kashmir has been present for a long time before 9/11.Ditto for the Hindu/Muslim riots if you believe that this problem is due to violent Quran/Gita verses you are mistaken. There are some people who do it for their religion no doubt, but politics and power play a far bigger role something that inspite of Iraq youll refuse to believe.

    Oh and by the way Im no atheist. add it to the ever growing list of things you are wrong about. And your concern about me hating to read is noted. (my book collection is fast approaching 5 digit figures). As to my disinterest in religion(wrong again) I have some knowledge of Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism and have friends from each of them and its one of the reasons i follow none of them. What about you?

    Theres another interesting video on youtube where a gentleman has taken the trouble to go through one of roberts book and the quran and robert’s references page by page and concluded much the same that I have done about Robert. Search for robert spencer book review and start from the second video.

    And finally i hope you take your own advice(to which you have made no rebuttal).
    “The critical flaw in that argument is obviously, that you are NOT a Muslim, and quite frankly, not qualified to speak on behalf of Muslims” – this sentence still causes great amusement. Please post it on jihadwatch!

  243. cerebate Says:

    Im reposting since wordpress seems to have swallowed my long reply, apologies if it gets posted twice

    I was referring to the challenge laid down by you
    “I absolutely challenge you to back up ANY of those statements about Robert Spencer with ANYTHING substantial, once again, not your strong suit it seems, for that involves work”
    so i do not quite get
    “The value of YOU answering the challenge to your own accusations”
    I believe i have substantiated my statements , and none of my statements are untrue/exaggerations/misleading. Is your only justification
    “First, everyone has an agenda and life isn’t fair and balanced”?
    Spencer is incorrect in his assertion that the crusades didnt use christianity to justify them. He is incorrect in his assertion that mohammed is *unique* as a warrior prophet with a doctrine(moses is the one that comes to mind)
    And i could go on , but i guess Robert is close to god status with you’ll and cant make an incorrect assertion. There is another you tube video robert spencer book review, watch it from part two onwards. A guy reads the book , goes throught the quran and some of the sources spencer cites. He comes to much the same conclusion as I do. Instructive viewing.

    I did miss your post and questions, my mistake, i guess this article comments are too busy

    “Do you believe that an untold number of the world’s Muslims view the Qur’an as the direct immmutable words of Allah, hence divine?”
    Yes(untold is a number between 0 and maximum number of muslims, everyone has to say yes.)

    “Do you understand via abrogation, just what is mandated by Allah of all it’s believers in the canonical text itself?”
    Yes. There is also the matter of context that you’ll willfully ignore(look up what some Islamic scholars have s alternate explanation). Let me assume it’s as you say . I suppose you are trying to point out the conversion, second class, death directive. Or the not having to follow others law directive. So lets assume that the Quran does as what you have said. Its still ok with me because the majority of muslims dont follow it (and i believe religion is as what the believers do, rather than what the book states).
    You will find examples throughout history where Islamic rulers and supposedly law but christians and hindu communities survived well enough. You will also find that there are example where Christian rulers and Christian law and Islamic almost communities wiped out(spain). This isnt moral equivalence just a pointer that Islam and the Quran havent changed. For you to be accurate, every community under Islamic law should have been wiped out. Coming from india , I know this is definitely not the case. So make as many arguments about abrogation as you want, real life has an answer for you.
    Also consider why Iraq under a muslim dictator had far less terrorists than iraq under American intervention(i do not support any form of dictatorship, stated to prevent a strawman response). consider why we do have moderately progressive islamic countries (and some which are violently fundamentalist. is your answer as easy as the Quran says so!)
    And its true for almost all religions. Not moral equivalence, simply that the believers believe what they want to, and its still logical and consistent to them. e.g. Christianity has forgive all enemies, love all enemies , dont cast a stone till your without sin. Know any christians save jesus who actually practised this? – but most still consider themselves good or nominal christians. how?

    Any other questions?

    You see , you’ll are bothered about terrorism and its causes after 9/11. we had this problems from the hindu / Muslim riots, the Bombay bomb blasts, The Kashmir issue. You think it’s all to do with the Quran and Islam, and some people are terrorists because of the religion that they were taught and the way they were taught it. However politics and power and money play a far far greater role. Even the Iraq war hasnt yet taught you that.

    I do wish you’d take your own advice
    “The critical flaw in that argument is obviously, that you are NOT a Muslim, and quite frankly, not qualified to speak on behalf of Muslims”
    and if you can please post your above statement on Jihadwatch.

    Offtopic
    There are some observations you have made about me, most are wrong so herewith
    “Your atheist principles are duly noted ”
    I am not an atheist. The latest test revealed Im a secular humanist.
    “your personal disinterest in religion”
    I am interested. I know something about Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism and have friends(from school and from the workplace) from each of those religion. What about you?
    “I know you hate to read”
    My book collection is fast approaching 5 digit figures.
    Add it to the large list of thing’s you are wrong about

  244. cerebate Says:

    elric
    nice to see you here.
    “Chritians dont blow themselves up per teachings of the Bible ”
    Nice try. Some of them do however mistreat(sometimes violently) gays. Some of them do show a lot of intolerance for mixed marriages. Some of them have also shown they are quite capable of blowing themselves up for a cause(Northern Ireland). Some of them have also willfully suppressed women. And they do this without even needing the bible to justify their actions (as per the infallible Robert himself)

    Yes similar examples exist for any religion. Its funny to see youll bleat about moral equivalence on one hand and then in the next post compare the two religions.

    Was Mohammed more like Jesus or Osama?
    This question is really a logical fallacy , a false dilemma. He was like neither. As a neutral , I would consider that someone who said he was a prophet to be different from someone who says he is the only son of god/ is god/is divine. I also expect mohammed who lived in a time where his people were persecuted to have a vastly different perspective and teachings. No this is not justification and yes jesus was persecuted too. I believe that most of jesus’s teaching are correct. And if someone slaps you maybe turning the cheek is the right approach. I have no answer to what to do if the person slaps your wife/child. I know i wouldnt ask them to turn the other cheek . Mohammed did have the responsibility of his people, so the comparison and the question is meaningless

    Since you evidently believe in Jesus, and i believe in most teachings of jesus(though im not christian), i havent yet found an answer to a dilemma below.
    Jesus taught love and peace and forgiveness to enemies. I also assume this means that killing someone is a sin. Yes?
    Since you are probably American, I will choose America for my example (i originally had this problem for my own country)
    American soldiers are brave and courageous, we are proud of them? Yes?
    Some american soldiers are christians? Yes?
    American soldiers have to kill people sometimes(some of them even innocent). This is violation of jesus’ teachings. And is a sin(Jesus did not teach its ok to kill in times of war)
    We still believe the soldiers are good and brave and are proud of them (and explicitly they arent sinners)

    So how do you rationalise this dilemma? If you can , you can get the answer to your question.

  245. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    Just checked my spam file and found that askimet had placed several of your posts in that file. I reclaimed them and posted them. Just wanted to let you know.

  246. cerebate Says:

    in2thefray
    “Is it the book or the actions ?”
    I wrestled with this for a lot of years. I settled on actions and those performing them.

  247. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    The last question that I posed here, or at least the one that got through, was directed at salahudin, not you. At least he tried to answer my initial question. You simply dodged it. Remember, unless Eagle alters this thread, historical context matters.

    You are simply re-hashing new rebuttals to old statements to try to put forth as contextual. I would much rather contine this debate with you on Jihad Watch for convenience, since you seem to be firmly ensconsed there at the moment anyway. The interface is simply easier, that’s all. If you think you have “got me” in this debate, feel free to post any exchange here on Jihad Watch yourself, for I am certainly not your lackey.

    In order to keep recent historical context, I will rather skip through most of that speech you put forth and try to answer your only question to me, oh wait, you actually didn’t ask one of me. Nevermind.

    Anyway, your fast-approaching five-digit reading list aside, I will refer to your response to in2thefray’s question of “is it the book or the actions?”

    Well, cerebate, your answer, what you settled on after years of internal wrestling is duly noted, and once again, quite valueless. The question would not and could not have been posed if the existence in the text was not real.

    It seems we have come full circle to my INITIAL question of this thread, abrogation and all. It is not a difficult concept. There is an impetus in the Qur’an that promotes and condones jihadist behavior. Robert Spencer, and I who echo his sentiment, have already adequately pointed that out.

    Instead of trying to convince me that I am a mindless bigot, just agree with that assessment and give me your opinion on what needs to occur in the Islamic community in the future to break this seemingly endless cycle, OK?

    Hell, even major Islamic reformist M. Zuhdi Jasser can admit that, almost anyway. 🙂

    http://familysecuritymatters.org/index.php?id=989002

  248. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    Thanks. But I managed to re-post my sentiment and it got through. No need to re-post the filtered posts. It will just look like spam on your blog.

    Regards,

    awake.

  249. urban Says:

    Cerabate, you havn’t got a clue about N. Ireland. Terrorists were blowing other people up, not themselves! (except by mistake!) The Catholics felt (rightly or wrongly) that they were 2nd class citizens in what they felt was their own country. The loyalists fought back or aggravated the situation (depending on your point of view) in order to maintain the status quo, or retaliate (again depending on your piont of view)
    To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever claimed they were doing God’s work when they were killing people(in N. Ireland)It’s muslims that seem to have a virtual monopoly on that school of thought, these days at least. And before you drag up the past, I know that countless atrocities have been carried out in the name of God, however these people were going against the teachings of Christ, whilst your savages are acting in accordance with their “religion”

  250. Elric66 Says:

    cerebate

    Nice try. Some of them do however mistreat(sometimes violently) gays. Some of them do show a lot of intolerance for mixed marriages. Some of them have also shown they are quite capable of blowing themselves up for a cause(Northern Ireland). Some of them have also willfully suppressed women. And they do this without even needing the bible to justify their actions (as per the infallible Robert himself)

    Oh yeah, thats the same. Lets compare some hateful bigots to what the Qur’an and Mohammed taught. And for the record, the IRA never blew themselves up, justified their actions with the Bible and they wanted to seperate from England not set up some Christian version of Sharia law.

    Yes similar examples exist for any religion. Its funny to see youll bleat about moral equivalence on one hand and then in the next post compare the two religions.

    Yes its funny. I compare the 2 to show there is no comparrison.

    Was Mohammed more like Jesus or Osama?
    This question is really a logical fallacy , a false dilemma. He was like neither. As a neutral , I would consider that someone who said he was a prophet to be different from someone who says he is the only son of god/ is god/is divine. I also expect mohammed who lived in a time where his people were persecuted to have a vastly different perspective and teachings. No this is not justification and yes jesus was persecuted too. I believe that most of jesus’s teaching are correct. And if someone slaps you maybe turning the cheek is the right approach. I have no answer to what to do if the person slaps your wife/child. I know i wouldnt ask them to turn the other cheek . Mohammed did have the responsibility of his people, so the comparison and the question is meaningless

    Poor Mohammed was persecuted? Now I have heard everything. Its also not a false dilemma. The best way to judge religions is to judge them by their founders and comapre the founders.

    Since you evidently believe in Jesus, and i believe in most teachings of jesus(though im not christian), i havent yet found an answer to a dilemma below.
    Jesus taught love and peace and forgiveness to enemies. I also assume this means that killing someone is a sin. Yes?
    Since you are probably American, I will choose America for my example (i originally had this problem for my own country)
    American soldiers are brave and courageous, we are proud of them? Yes?
    Some american soldiers are christians? Yes?
    American soldiers have to kill people sometimes(some of them even innocent). This is violation of jesus’ teachings. And is a sin(Jesus did not teach its ok to kill in times of war)
    We still believe the soldiers are good and brave and are proud of them (and explicitly they arent sinners)

    So how do you rationalise this dilemma? If you can , you can get the answer to your question.

    Pretty easy. True Americans are American first. They will fight for their country. Muslims on the other hand, are Muslim first. Hence the name Muslim American. The Qur’an teaches that all Muslims belong to the Ummah.

    Since you evidently believe in Jesus, and i believe in most teachings of jesus(though im not christian), i havent yet found an answer to a dilemma

  251. Elric66 Says:

    Urban

    When it comes down to it, thats the difference. When Muslims commit jihad, its within the teachings of Mohammed. When Christians do horrific things it goes against the teachings of Jesus.

  252. cerebate Says:

    Urban
    People do portray N Ireland as Catholics v/s Protestants yes? Superficially it is so. When you get down to details you find that there are other reasons (power, politics, land). However when it comes to anything involving a muslim , it has to be Religion?
    Elric
    “When Muslims commit jihad, its within the teachings of Mohammed. When Christians do horrific things it goes against the teachings of Jesus.”
    Im sure this distinction’s matter a lot to the people to whom the horrific things are done to.

    “Pretty easy. True Americans are American first”
    Not the dilemma im referring to. The dilemma is if the teachings of christ are correct ,then is killing allowed in war.

  253. cerebate Says:

    Oh yes abrogation again. You seem not to understand me when i state that believers believe what makes sense to them. Yes there was an attempt in Islam to make the contradictions go away (Ever heard of Constantine?). You have your interpretations , I have told you , assume you are right and that i agree with you. My point still is that even so, so long as the majority doesnt follow it, the abrogation is moot. You dont seem to agree with this, thats ok, just dont say that im dodging it.

    Does Islam need reform? , offcourse it does.
    I think the moderates need to do something to improve the way women are treated sometimes. I think they need to educate themselves a bit more(Especially in places like india). I think they should stop ghettoising themselves in places where they are a minority and socialise more. There are a lot more things id like to see . Reforming the Quran comes way towards the bottom of the list more. The christians have demonstrated it’s quite easy to have violent stuff and ignore it, and you can always wipe out the past with “moral equivalence” arguments.

    But heres the thing, they are not going to reform because you or I say so. we are outsiders after all. They wont even discuss it with you because of the way you’ll come across(and in some cases are). Robert states he does what he does to encourage discussion. Tell me how many who show up on jihadwatch to discuss are people who simply add “yes, i agree” in various forms to everything robert states(some are thick skinned like me , who come to see active demonstrations of various logical fallacies). How many muslims come to defend their point of view and how many of them/their faith are roundly abused. Have you had the discussions to reform islam yet with the people who matter , i.e. the muslims?
    Do you really think this the robert spencer jihadwatch way is the way forth to reform Islam?
    Me I’d say encourage the moderate muslims to do something about it. They are the only people who have a chance of succeeding.

    Offtopic
    “Anyway, your fast-approaching five-digit reading list aside, I will refer to your response to in2thefray’s question of “is it the book or the actions?””
    This statement is made to your accusation about my dislike of reading. But then making inaccurate accusations is a habit with you. I read books. When someone blames a book for his actions or views, I blame them. Is it so hard to understand?.
    You are free to not post to jihadwatch, but atleast tell me are you going to follow your advice?
    “The critical flaw in that argument is obviously, that you are NOT a Muslim, and quite frankly, not qualified to speak on behalf of Muslims”
    pretty please?

  254. Elric66 Says:

    “Im sure this distinction’s matter a lot to the people to whom the horrific things are done to.”

    It should. Thats why you see Islamic terorrism around the world and not Christian, Buddist, Pagan, Hindu etc terrorism around the world. Because only in Islam, can justification for terrorism be found.

  255. Elric66 Says:

    “The christians have demonstrated it’s quite easy to have violent stuff and ignore it”

    So why do Muslims have such a hard time? My guess is that their prophet led by example.

  256. Eagle Says:

    cerebate,
    you said, “Do you really think this the robert spencer jihadwatch way is the way forth to reform Islam?
    Me I’d say encourage the moderate muslims to do something about it. They are the only people who have a chance of succeeding.”

    AMEN 😀 That is one of the points I have been trying to make. I want Muslims to read my blog. I want them to comment. I don’t think they have a clue what awaits them if the radicals have their way. I don’t think most Americans do either, or consider that they could win. That is the reason I was so angry with Elric, he ran off my Muslim readers. How much will they learn if they aren’t around. How many Muslims do you think read jihadwatch??

    You and I think alike 😀 I’m glad I met you and I hope you continue to post on my blog.

  257. cerebate Says:

    Elric66
    i do see terrorism other than Islamic Terrorism. If you dont it’s probably because you dont read papers published in countries other than the USA.
    “So why do Muslims have such a hard time”
    Most of them dont.

  258. Elric66 Says:

    “That is the reason I was so angry with Elric, he ran off my Muslim readers.”

    I ran them off? LOL More like they couldnt handle the truth. Im not like most people, I dont walk on eggshells around Muslims.

  259. Elric66 Says:

    “i do see terrorism other than Islamic Terrorism. If you dont it’s probably because you dont read papers published in countries other than the USA.”

    Really lets here it. For everyone you name, I can name an act of Islamic terrorism. Just today, a Muslim med student in Dearbornistan was picked up for carry an assault rifle in a park while in cammo.

  260. cerebate Says:

    “Really lets here it. For everyone you name, I can name an act of Islamic terrorism”
    Umm and that proves what? i do not believe we were arguing that there are more islamic terrorists than other terrorists.Your assertion was
    “Thats why you see Islamic terorrism around the world and NOT Christian, Buddist, Pagan, Hindu etc terrorism around the world”
    So now you have changed from do NOT see christian etc.. to there is other terrorism in the world but not as much as Islamic?
    Here’s an exercise for you . Define Terrorism.
    (Mine is the use of violence or the threat of violence to intimidate/force people to get your way.) I can make a counter claim for every Islamic Terrorist activity you can point out , i can point out a terrorist activity by a Non Islam related event based on my definition of terrorism.

    And by the way , The act of carrying a gun illegally is a felony , not a terrorist activity unless he used it to threaten someone. But just in case , you can google for other people arrested for illegal arms posession(http://lapdblog.typepad.com/lapd_blog/2007/04/usc_student_arr.html)
    In case you still dont get it, you make futile, nonsensical challenges.

    Im still waiting for your answer to my dilemma.

  261. Eagle Says:

    cerebate,

    I wouldn’t indulge him if I were you. There is nothing you can ever say that he will agree with, unless you tell him he is right in all his opinions. And you start writing like him, that is the only way. Then he will move on to bully someone else. So far he has only found one other person who believes and acts like him.

  262. cerebate Says:

    Eagle
    dont worry. I take it as a good thing that he(or people from jihadwatch) doesnt agree with anything I say , i find it validates somethings i believe in :).
    But he is evidently under the impression that people stop responding to him because he has proven them wrong. Something that I can fix. Truthfully it is amusing to read his wild statements and figure out which one of these logical fallacies(http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) it belongs to.
    I do realise he troubles you, simply ignore him

  263. Eagle Says:

    cerebate
    You can be sure I will. It is taking everything I have in me to keep from erasing his comments. If you read what I said to him about cops under “Reform in Islam” you’ll see why.

  264. Shiva Says:

    Eagle
    That is one of the points I have been trying to make. I want Muslims to read my blog.

    Are you serious, what do you think you can tell them, what are you going to say to moslems that have had islam pumped into them since before they can read or write

    I want them to comment. I don’t think they have a clue what awaits them if the radicals have their way.

    Well I think they have a better idea of what awaits them than you do

    The Myth of Moderate Islam
    A version of this article appeared under the title Because Allah Wills It on Killing the Buddha in 2005

    There are continuously endangered communities in Pakistan, where outrageous fortune visits often in the form of drought, disease, and heat. Life is unchanging and tedious. Most businesses do not have deeds, so there is no chance of getting new loans to make a bigger shop. Most households live under the threat of yet another theft. Parents worry that their youth will join the new “Islamic Organizations” — which are words that refer to any group of divinely sanctioned extortionists intimidating the shop owners.

    This is one of those cities where the harshness of life has made the exterior of its citizens tough enough to withstand the heat of the desert. The spirits of its people, on the other hand, are not as taut and unbending as their bodies suggest. I spent part of my youth in such cities; they educated me through the one means they had, Islam, and then I came here, to the West, where I now keep my home.

    Fridays in Islam are holy. The Friday prayer, the jummah, is a communal and collectivist affair, carried out in the outer yard of the masjid at a time when the desert sun is at its highest. In Dera Ghazi Khan, the temperature at the time of the sermon would be close to 110 degrees Fahrenheit. We performed ablution and took our time washing our hands, face, arms, and feet. We sat with heads bowed. We learnt that Allah is the Most Merciful. We learnt that (somehow) there is a limit to God’s volition, and that He saves his mercy for only a select group of people.

    According to our imam, Allah saved this mercy for people like us — his congregants. Since Allah is the Most Just, and since we believed ourselves to be the most deserving of justice, there was no doubt that He would make the right decision on the Day of Judgment — and grant us Paradise. Allah, it was guaranteed, simply would not pick “the disbelievers, the heretics, the sinners, the decadent, the corrupt, and the ones who’ve forsaken Allah for luxury.” He would not commit an error and grant Paradise to someone else because “no one else suffers for their faith as much” as we did. The imam spoke such words with conviction and we believed him. I grew up with this idea in mind: All extravagance, luxury, happiness should arouse mistrust; only the most onerous and debilitating states are trustworthy. Suffering grants supremacy.

    The type of man borne from such sermons welcomes sorrow, relishes pain, and exalts suffering. For him there is no value in the success of his relationships unless they add to one’s misery; there is no value in tears because they would mitigate the sorrows — and that is not wanted. The irony is that even if one comes to realize the unhealthiness of such a way of life, the impractibility of always being life’s martyr, one dares not let go of it, because being happy now, in this life, means being damned tomorrow. After such a life, no one wants an even worse afterlife.

    I moved away at an early age without ever discovering the method in which one reconciles this sort of melancholy with life. Had I stayed, perhaps I would’ve gained that valuable insight known to all my neighbors: one learns to live with suffering by enjoying the suffering of others. In short, one develops a kick for cruelty.

    To this day I remember that the khutbah, or sermon, was a dialectical to and fro between descriptions of paradise and descriptions of hell. The emphasis was not on the reclining cushions and leafy glades of paradise, where the congregants would one day find themselves if they performed good deeds during their time on this world. Much of the time was spent talking about the “others deserving of damnation” — about those others whose faith was not like ours because they did not suffer as we did.

    The implication was simple: Those cooled by air-conditioners, those whose faucets ran with clean water, those living in absolute security — because Life had not tested them, Allah would. In Hell. Their bodies would become cocoons of pus; and the water they drank would turn to molten lava. Each such promise regarding the damnation of others — such guarantees of cruelty! — ended in affirmative nodding of heads, murmurs of approval, and occasionally little chuckles.

    It was the enjoyment of cruelty toward others that allowed the people to deal with their own melancholy. Enjoyment of another’s suffering gave them reprieve from their own. The festivity of cruelty rid life of its solemnity.

    By 1993, the militant Islam that had helped to drive out the Soviets from Afghanistan had been imported to Pakistan. It acquired its legitimacy by a backwards reading of Islamic texts; and it supported the imposition of Islamically sanctioned public stonings, floggings, amputations, and crucifixions. Such Islam was made to pander to cruelty. Consider the paradox: the same Islam which in passage after passage of the Koran promises its believers green gardens in exchange for their moral lives now promised them satisfaction by sanctifying cruelty upon other men.

    The intervention of the Pakistani government has prevented the spread of such punishment-based religiosity. The impulse, however, remains unsatisfied. Thus, it occurs that the desire to see cruelty in action simmers into the general populace and creates two sub-cultures. First, there are the sort of people like my cousin Tazir. To him, to be Muslim is to be nothing more than to be someone who must support the expansion of the flags of Islam throughout the entire world. He has no conception of the consequences. Second, there are people like my aunt Bushara. Her husband took on a second wife without her consultation and then moved said second wife into the same house as her. Instead of rising in resistance, she simply went to pray.

    Tazir lives a form of Islam in which violence, control, and power are justified. Bushara lives a form of religion in which everything is tolerated “because Allah wills it!” I wonder which type I would have become had I remained in Pakistan. Would my Islam be Tazir’s Cruel Islam or Aunt Bushara’s Submissive Islam?

    When I arrived here in the United States, I reveled in the hope that it was time for a new start. This was the enlightened world, the peaceful world; surely the Islam I would be given here would be tinged with different colors. But I was wrong. Islam here had changed its tune but it had not changed its rhyme.

    My Islamic educators in the States merely replaced the menace of “hardship” with the menace of “persecution.” My American imam told me about the persecution “we people of a different religion” would face in this country. He merely had to point to the demonizing movies in Hollywood, such as Executive Decision and The Seige, in which the people of Islam were made out to be demons hell-bent on violent acts. He merely had to point to America’s history towards Native Americans, Blacks, Jews, and Japanese interned during World War II. If America could be unjust in the past to those that did not fit its definition of normal, what, he asked me, would America do to us? He fed me distrust and I swallowed each bitter spoonful. I became just as miserable as I had been in Pakistan.

    So I became fatalistic and apathetic like Aunt Bushara. I remained within the folds of Islam because it gave me a framework in which to be submissive; and in being submissive, remain static. It let me believe that my inertness was tolerable, if not altogether ideal.

    I always chuckle when I hear the political pundits calling people like me, us placid pools of personality, the “saving force” of Islam simply because we are not firebrands like Bin Laden. I’m also amused when I see some of those who share my faith, from places not unlike Pakistan, strutting around and considering themselves the highest of Muslims in the world simply because they are removed from the difficulties of “the old country” even though they live a life of silence.

    Many pundits, both inside and outside the community of immigrant American Islam, have rested their hopes upon us muted ones. They expect us to free global Islam from the Tazirs and Bin Ladens of the religion. Somehow we cows, chewing on the cud of our paranoia-stricken life, have been labeled “moderate” as if we offer a counterweight to the extremists. We don’t.

    If anything, in the world after 9/11, most of us American Muslims are more concerned with hanging onto our jobs and our passports, and not being caught under the heavy hoofs of Ashcroft’s ghost-horses than on challenging the oligarchy of our imams. Immigrant Muslims are not rebels or revolutionaries; no world-changing reformation will miraculously tumble forth from behind the veil of our silence. Any one immigrant American Muslim is just another congregant from Pakistan, another Bushara, tolerant of everything, including injustice — because Allah wills it.

    We are not even moderately interested in tackling the Tazirs of this world. Our fundamentalism is that of fatalism. Sure, it is not as bad as terrorism; but the silence of fatalism is just as deafening as terrorism’s explosions. The only difference between us American Muslims and my aunt Bushara is that I am aware of my shortcoming. Awareness, however, does not mean that we have the requisite courage to change.

    I wish I could close this essay with optimism, a plan by which I could be rid of my conditioned apathy, by which American Muslims might become revolutionaries of change for a new and different Islam. However, in these hopeless times, I can’t afford to spend the little reservoirs of hope I do have left on today or tomorrow; they are reserved for my afterlife.

    This entry was written by eteraz and posted on September 10, 2007

  265. Shiva Says:

    OOOP,S

    Eagle doesnt like links

  266. Eagle Says:

    What are you, Elric’s twin?

  267. Eagle Says:

    “ooop,s Eagle doesnt like links”

    No Eagle doesn’t like jerks.

  268. awake Says:

    Shiva,

    Nice Post. Was that actually recently posted by Ali Eteraz?

    I enjoyed debating him in the past, but if this posting is true, he appears quite lost at the moment.

    Throwing in the towel anyone?

  269. Shiva Says:

    Awake

    Nice Post. Was that actually recently posted by Ali Eteraz?

    You choose your nick appropriately

    I enjoyed debating him in the past, but if this posting is true, he appears quite lost at the moment.

    I would not say he is so much lost, but that is another debate.

    I chose to post his article, because it reflects what I see daily, and he describes the moslem mindset much better than I can

    I see children as young as three years old being forced to learn the koran, two to three hours daily, and this is in Indonesia. What is frightening, this is going on in many places in europe, and America.

    And Eagle thinks he has some thing to say to moslems, that can put them on the “right path”

    Well Eagle you have a lot of spunk, if you think you can succeed, where as many have failed the last 1300 years

    Personally, I think Vlad Dracula was on the right right path.

  270. Shiva Says:

    Yes it was

    This entry was written by eteraz and posted on September 10, 2007

    It is on his site

    Sorry the owner here is not to happy about linking

  271. Elric66 Says:

    “I can make a counter claim for every Islamic Terrorist activity you can point out , i can point out a terrorist activity by a Non Islam related event based on my definition of terrorism. ”

    Go for it. Should be interesting to say the least.

  272. Elric66 Says:

    Shiva,

    Eagle doesnt like anything that proves him wrong. Like avoiding the fact that 46 percent of Pakistan approves of Osama. You know his “moderate” Pakistan.

  273. Shiva Says:

    Elric66

    Like avoiding the fact that 46 percent of Pakistan approves of Osama. You know his “moderate” Pakistan.

    Not quite right

    The report said it polled 1,044 people across Pakistan between August 18 and August 29.
    Military ruler Musharraf, facing the biggest political crisis of his eight years in power and increasing pressure from Washington to tackle extremism, is the biggest in from the poll.

    It said his approval rating was 38 per cent behind 46 per cent for bin Laden, the architect of the September 11, 2001 attacks who is believed to be hiding on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

    Bin Laden’s ratings jumped to 70 per cent in the Islamist-ruled North West Frontier Province.

    A polling of 1044 people is not the same as polling the entire population

    Now what is scary is Bin Laben is not even Pakistani, and this is the type of support he enjoys world wide, if there where to be a global election, we would see Laden way ahead of anybody else, not even one western leader would come any where near him.

  274. Elric66 Says:

    Shiva,

    It doesnt matter what nationality he is. He is Muslim, part of the Ummah. But no matter how much aid (jizya) we give, they will hate us.

  275. salahudin Says:

    awake, you’re talking about the so-caled sword verse? there ARE worst verses in the bible, so how come you don’t criticize that? i know you have an issue with the moral equivalency argument, but your issue is emotional and not objective… :/

    furthermore the sword verse can be easily interpreted in different ways if taken in the context of history… which WOULD be the “scientific” approach.

    “None of my business??”

    indeed it isn’t. it’s called secularism.really think about it: a muslim believing in the quran, praying in the mosque or in his house… fasting during ramdan… giving charity to the poor… feeding the hungry… loving his neighbor… what business is it of yours???

    “Hope is a great thing, not necessarily a staple for atheists,”

    !???? excuse me!??? 😛 lol. ridiculous statement.

    “The simplest and most direct question that I have for you, if you could try to answer is how you can validate your claim that the jihadist interpretation of the Qur’an is radical?”

    concepts like radical and “extremist” are RELATIVE to the majority.

    majority of muslims DO NOT interpret it the way islamists do. hence the islamists are radical.

    rational and simple enough… right?

    ___

    elric and shiva:

    here’s an actually accredited poll of muslims:

    http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/05/29/islam-muslims-the-world-a-brief-paradigmatic-analysis/

  276. Eagle Says:

    salahudin,
    Thanks for that, I will add that link to my next post. 🙂

  277. Elric66 Says:

    “awake, you’re talking about the so-caled sword verse? there ARE worst verses in the bible, so how come you don’t criticize that? ”

    Well if Christians were committing Christian terrorism around the world at the same pace as Muslims do with islam, we sure would.

  278. salahudin Says:

    well that’s good elric, though your attitude and inflammatory comments don’t give credence to your implication that you’re at all fair minded and unbiased…

  279. awake Says:

    salahudin wrote:

    “indeed it isn’t. it’s called secularism.really think about it: a muslim believing in the quran, praying in the mosque or in his house… fasting during ramdan… giving charity to the poor… feeding the hungry… loving his neighbor… what business is it of yours???”

    Yep, salahudin, that must be it, my obsession with Ramadan is why I am critical of Islam.

  280. Elric66 Says:

    Awake,

    I wonder if they care that a pro Sharia party formed in Finland

  281. salahudin Says:

    now elric’s against the right to organize… who’s truly against our values and society? muslims or elric’s kind? 🙂

    awake: your comment makes no sense but perhaps it was a bad attempt at sarcasm..

  282. Elric66 Says:

    Nope they dont care. I suspect they would be ok living under Sharia law.

  283. in2thefray Says:

    40-50k Muslims in Finland. The “group” has not yet gathered the 5k signatures required to gain legitimacy.Muslims in Finland are currently active in other parties. I think everyones supply of Absolut is safe.

  284. awake Says:

    salahudin,

    The sarcasm was obvious, in response to that ridiculous statement you made that I quoted.

  285. Elric66 Says:

    For now. But since the Muslims are outbreeding the Euros and out of control immigration, its only a matter of time before Muslims will use our democracy to impose Islamic law.

  286. in2thefray Says:

    Then the Euros should start freakin’ instead of frettin’. The Euros are responsible for their own democracy. Close borders and vote vote vote. Finland is a bit out of the way of the Caliphate

  287. Elric66 Says:

    Euros are still in denial, like some posters on this blog.

  288. salahudin Says:

    elric, that’s their first REAL experience with pluralism. let’s hope their fascistic past doesn’t re-emerge.

    awake: so every time someone makes a legitimate point, you ignore it, calling it ridiculous? 😛 no wonder you have such a one sided perspective on islam. try flipping the channel away from fox news

  289. Elric66 Says:

    Yes, lets pine our hopes that Muslims wont vote in Sharia law. we have so many examples of Islamic utopias as role models.

  290. salahudin Says:

    i don’t see the problem in learning from different societies and culture… although i’ll agree with you in a way: the basic values of our democracy and pluralism ought not to be compromised. civil rights need to be upheld…

    barring that, the shariah is no threat.

  291. Elric66 Says:

    “barring that, the shariah is no threat.”

    Which would mean no Sharia law.

    What do we have to learn from Islam? What does Islam have to teach us?

  292. in2thefray Says:

    Elric 66 I’ve tried to answer some of your questions and have imo respectfully exchanged viewpoints. Am I in denial ?
    Finland (for now),Canada and England (def) are examples of countries that should embrace their democracies. They can out vote those that would vote for Sharia .And when they do that they shouldn’t be to shocked that there is a Muslim in the next booth voting against it too.

  293. Elric66 Says:

    They can out vote it until Muslims outnumber their host nations population.

    But why would a Muslim vote against Islamic law? If Islam is so tolerant and benevolent, whats the problem?

  294. salahudin Says:

    elric said: “What do we have to learn from Islam? What does Islam have to teach us?”

    charity, for one thing. not the christian kind… but charity as a duty towards the needy and the orphan…?

    “But why would a Muslim vote against Islamic law?”

    because there ARE muslims who believe in separation of mosque and state.

  295. awake Says:

    salahudin,

    With all due respect, an ex-Muslim telling a non-Muslim that Islam is none of my business is NOT a legitimate point.

  296. salahudin Says:

    with all due respect accepted and equal given back:

    people’s personal belief in the quran is none of your business.

    don’t change my words. 🙂

    with all due respect + a cherry on top! beat that…

  297. Elric66 Says:

    “charity, for one thing. not the christian kind… but charity as a duty towards the needy and the orphan…?”

    You mean those Muslim “charity” groups linked to terror groups, the charity groups that give to Muslims only?

    And why is it that Christian charity groups will give more to anybody, even ungrateful Muslims but not Muslim charities?

    “because there ARE muslims who believe in separation of mosque and state.”

    But if Islam is so tolerant, respectful to others, and benevolent, it shouldnt matter. But since Islam is political in nature, Muslims that believe in the seperation dont follow the teachings of Mohammed.

  298. Elric66 Says:

    “people’s personal belief in the quran is none of your business. ”

    It is if Muslims around the world are using that unholy book to justify terrorism.

    BTW, the med student was a member of Hezbollah. Another Muslim doctor/pre med gone bad.

  299. Elric66 Says:

    Article by an ex-Muslim

    In England and France, this has already begun. Muslims have created large enclaves in urban centers in which sharia law is in effect, in “areas of finance and mortgages; halal food in schools, hospitals, and prisons, faith schools funded by the state; prayer rooms in every police station in London.” Instead of assimilating into the larger culture, Muslims have, he says, created a “parallel society in the UK.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070911/29262_Soft_Terrorism.htm

    A real Christian I might add

  300. Shiva Says:

    salahudin

    as for EloisVs’s ludicrous quranic verses… allow me to demolish them

    he said:

    “Advocating theft;
    48:19 And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.”

    FIRST we put it in the CONTEXT of the verses above and below:

    [48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory,

    [48.19] And many acquisitions which they will take; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    [48.20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path.

    THEN we look at the historical situation when it was “Revealed”, in order to put it in the correct historical context and hence not derive an arbitrary meaning from it:

    when the makkan pagans agreed to allow the muslims safe passage to their city for 10 years, this was what was meant by acquisitions, SINCE makkah (which literally translates to CENTER) was the center of A MAJOR TRADE ROUTE of that era.

    the rest of his verses can also be easily demolished… one just needs to be… ahem.. learned.

    NO NO SALUHUDIN you have not demolished the verses that EloisVs’s posted

    Firstly you have not put the verse properly into context just by putting one verse bin front and another behind,

    No Salahudin you toothless lion it is you that is putting the verse out of context out of context

    [48:13] And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared for those who reject Allah, a blazing Fire!

    [48:14] To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills: but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    [48:15] Those who lagged behind (will say), when ye (are free to) march and take booty* (in war): “Permit us to follow you.” They wish to change Allah’s decree: say: “Not thus will ye follow us: Allah has already declared (this) beforehand”: then they will say, “But ye are jealous of us.” Nay, but little do they understand (such things).

    [48:16] Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: “Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty.”

    [48:17] No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): but he that obeys Allah and His Messenger, (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

    [48:18] Allah’s Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;

    [48;19] And many gains** (( acquisitions ***)) will they acquire (besides): and Allah is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.

    booty* Goods obtained illegally. Spoils obtained as a result of war or battle.

    gains** derive: obtain; “derive pleasure from one’s garden”
    acquire: win something

    ***acquisition – the act of contracting or assuming or acquiring possession of something; “the acquisition of wealth”;

    It is true that there was a truce (Hudaibiyah Treaty) with the Quraish, but salahudin, fails to mention how long that truce lasted before Mohammed was back to war again..

    The Hudaibiyah Treaty was broken after only two years

    In the year seven of Hijra Muhammad had signed a peace treaty with the Meccans, a few miles away from that town, in a place called Hudaibiyah.

    The treaty stated that for 10 years Muslims would leave the Quraish and their caravans unscathed and would not harass them by waylaying their caravans and plundering their properties. In exchange the Quraish would allow the Muslims to perform Hajj starting from the subsequent year.

    After signing that accord, Muhammad concentrated on the North and raided the Northern populations of Arabia , starting with Khaibar, which was a prosperous Jewish town and then subdued many other smaller populations, casting terror in the hearts of the majority of the Arabs.

    Only two years after the treaty of Hudaibiyah he felt strong enough to attack Mecca and was able to gather 10,000 men to accompany him in the expedition. (At Hudaibiyah he had only 1500 men).

    Not all those who accompanied him were Muslims. But he was an emerging tyrant and some of the tribes feared that refusing his demand would anger him and they too could become his subsequent victims.

    In other words they tried to stay out of his harm by appeasing him. Among them were the two big tribes of Sulaim and Tamim. To sweeten the deal Muhammad offered them a share of the booty. Carrot and stick are the preferred tools of narcissists.

    But Muhammad had signed a treaty with the Meccans. How could he get around it? Not that the treaty itself was any deterrent, what Muhammad needed was an excuse to justify his treachery.

    The solution to all Muhammad’s problems was Allah and in this case also it was Allah who gave him deliverance.

    Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Quran into English writes:

    “Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29).

    In this discourse Muhammad declared that all the treaties that he had previously signed with the Pagans are null and that the Pagans had four months of grace to submit to him and after that they would be hunted and “covered with shame”.

    The pretext to declare null his treaty with the Meccans was soon found.

    In the vicinity of Mecca there were two tribes with a long standing feud between them. One was Bani Bakr who had Meccans for allies and the other was Bani Khoza’a. They sought the protection of Muhammad when he was stationed in Hudaibiyah.

    It happened that several men of the Bani Bakr, in their traditional custom of hostility, effected a petty raid on their enemies, the Bani Khoza’a, and killed a few of them.

    The victims took their complaints to Muhammad to punish the aggressors. Entreaty was hardly necessary. The opportunity that Muhammad had been waiting for had finally arrived. He immediately gave his word to avenge their blood: “If I assist you not with the same aid as if the cause were mine own, then let Allah never assist me again!” But it was the invasion of Mecca that Muhammad was really coveting.

    Instead of Bani Bakr, Muhammad started making preparation to attack Mecca . This was a continuing war between two unrelated tribes. The treaty of Hudaibiyah was signed between Muhammad and the Quraish.

    In no logical terms one can find an excuse for Muhammad to annul the treaty and attack Mecca . To justify this war he accused the Meccans of furnishing weapons to Bani Bakr.

    The history is written by the Muslims and we have no way to verify their claims against their enemies, but even if this accusation was true, still the Meccans cannot be blamed for selling arms to their allies. One can find no justification for Muhammad for invading Mecca .

    Thanx to Ali Sini

  301. Eagle Says:

    Everyone should read my most recent post. It will give you just a small sample of what Muslims think of the tactics of al Qaeda.

  302. cerebate Says:

    Elric
    Im waiting for your definition of terrorism. Or is it possible you agree with mine?

  303. Eagle Says:

    cerebate,
    Unfortunatly, you guys are on different time clocks. elric appears to get up early and signs off early in the evening especially when he can’t find someone to argue with him. Since we are going into the weekend, I’m sure he will be a pest all day.

  304. cerebate Says:

    Eagle
    No worries. It’s not like im missing something important 🙂

  305. urban Says:

    Salahudin, For an apostate you spend a lot of time and effort defending islam. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I for one do not hate muslims, it’s islam that I hate. I’m not keen on communism, I don’t hate Chinese, I feel sorry for them.
    Islam should be banned in all western lands, and all practicing muslims should be repatrioated (I don’t care where they were born) Converts have to have a screw loose, and should be locked away in an an institution for the insane or given a one way ticket to saudi.

  306. Shiva Says:

    urban

    Salahudin, For an apostate you spend a lot of time and effort defending islam.

    He is a muslim, not only that, he is a liar.

    We can see how he tried to demolish EloisVs’s quranic verses, by trying to use the muzi trick of putting into context
    and re-invent new meanings for words.

    I like this little gem I picked up at his site

    Islamophobes, fascists (Hindu, Christian, Nazi, etc) and other bigots like Ali Sina, Daniel Pipes, Ibn Warraq and the contributors to JihadWatch.org, ReligionOfPeace.com etc, absolutely insist that Islam can not be “reformed” and that it is inherently a violent religion that creates terrorists.

    A salahudins little lapdog laps it all up

    It would not come as a surprise to me that Eagle is just some newly reverted muslim.

    He has all the hall marks of either a muslim or a troll, but as this is his blog then being a troll is not valid, so that make him a follower of ol pedo mo, the foulest of creatures, the psyko profet of the toweled loony heads

  307. Eagle Says:

    Shiva,

    You can go the way of Elric, I am tired of dealing with people who hate. I don’t think like you or believe like you and NEVER WILL. Your hate is no different than the terrorist. They are unreasonable too. What a great club to belong to, you and elric must be so proud….

    YOu have called me clueless numerous times, so why are you still here?? Why waste your time. You are not going to change my mind and I won’t listen to anyone who is rude and disrespectful.

    I will tell you the same thing I told Elric, I don’t need your help in writing my blog, and I need to get back to my normal topics. You and Elric have proved my point on what a bigot is.

    So go back to your own blog and leave me alone.

  308. Eagle Says:

    salahudin’s little lap dog???

    No…, but I do count it a privilege to be called his friend.

    We don’t think alike when it comes to religion in general, but we do when it comes to people like you!!

    Your kind is a dime a dozen. I can just imagine how “diverse” your friends are.

  309. salahudin Says:

    @ Elric:
    ” You mean those Muslim “charity” groups linked to terror groups, the charity groups that give to Muslims only?”

    No silly… you don’t know much about islam, do you? i’m talking about zakaat… it’s only one of the primary 5 basics of islam… 😛

    “And why is it that Christian charity groups will give more to anybody, even ungrateful Muslims but not Muslim charities?”

    That’s not an informed statement on your part. 🙂 Muslim charities by and large, give to everyone.

    @ shiva:

    “[Salahudin] He is a muslim, not only that, he is a liar.”

    😛

    that’s hilarious. you haven’t seen my blog have you? Anyone reading my blog will learn about intellectual reasons why religion is a nuisance, including hinduism… 🙂 and no i can’t be “faking” those intellectual arguments because they aren’t copy pasted… they’re originally constructed.

    You’re so full of hatred that you’re labeling me a muslim just to justify hating and opposing my point of view… the weird thing is that as a rational person, you rationale IS that it’s okay to hate on people if they’re muslim!

    I posit if Islam is a doctrine of hatred, then you’re the true muslim here. 🙂

    “We can see how he tried to demolish EloisVs’s quranic verses, by trying to use the muzi trick of putting into context”

    Oh yeah! putting things into CONTEXT! OH NOOoOoo! HAHHAHAHAHHAHAH i’m SO EVIL and “tricky” that i tried to use an ACADEMIC METHOD…!!

    that by far… is the nail in the coffin: you are an extreme bigot, who has lost his temper to the degree that now you’re bashing logic and reasoning… 😛

    @ urban:

    “Islam should be banned in all western lands, and all practicing muslims should be repatrioated (I don’t care where they were born) Converts have to have a screw loose, and should be locked away in an an institution for the insane or given a one way ticket to saudi.”

    that’s islamophobia right there…

  310. salahudin Says:

    maybe shiva will personally attack me for being honest about reporting what’s in the quran, next?

    😛

    from his last statement, i can easily imagine him saying things like: “salahudin is a liar and a cheat! he is using TRICKS like REASONING and LOGIC and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD! these are all muslim tricks!!!”

    LMAO

  311. salahudin Says:

    And i have the utmost respect for Eagle, for putting up with bigots like you on his blog… 🙂

    he is a very wise person indeed, by letting you be the example of bigotry and islamophobia, to underscore his points…

    (psst… you don’t honestly think you’re changing minds with your verbal diarrhea, do you? 😛 )

  312. Eagle Says:

    got any treats salahudin, if I am your lap dog, I expect some rewards for it. 😀

  313. Elric66 Says:

    I would respond but the delete master is on the prowl. 🙂

  314. Eagle Says:

    go for it

  315. Elric66 Says:

    Linguistically, Zakaat has two meanings: purification and growth. Technically, it means to purify one’s possession of wealth by distributing a prescribed amount to the poor, the indigent, the slaves or captives, and the wayfarer.

    Wow even slaves? How Islamic

  316. salahudin Says:

    as opposed to giving nothing to slaves? better option, isn’t it?

    but let’s not forget the bible ALSO endorsed slavery.. which goes back to my assertion: islam and christianity are morally equivalent.

    anyhow, you can still LEARN from the concept of zakaat, can’t you?

    🙂

    admit it elric… you won’t be a lesser man if you do: you CAN learn something good from islam.

  317. salahudin Says:

    anyhow, i’m off. thanks for the advice, eagle. will see you guys some other time.

  318. Eagle Says:

    later salahudin, get well soon

  319. Eagle Says:

    elric, your a troll just looking for someone to argue with you

    Its already been said and re-said, but you will never understand it. Now I am tired of dealing with you so your done on this blog unless someone wants to hear from you specifically.

  320. cerebate Says:

    “salahudin is a liar and a cheat! he is using TRICKS like REASONING and LOGIC and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD! these are all muslim tricks!!!”
    too funny, man. Too bad shiva and co dont seem to have a sense of humor(along with their other obvious shortcomings.

  321. Shiva Says:

    cerebate

    “salahudin is a liar and a cheat! he is using TRICKS like REASONING and LOGIC and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD! these are all muslim tricks

    Not REASONING and LOGIC and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD

    By changing the meaning of the words.

    Gains, acquisition, booty.

  322. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    A phobia is an irrational fear. Is it irrational to fear a belief system that mandates death, conversion or 2nd class citizenship to non-believers?
    Or should I re-phrase that,
    Is it irrational to fear a belief system, where a significant proportion of its followers, miss-understand the context in which verses like “kill the un-believer wherever you find them”
    I am not islamophobic, the word shouldn’t even exist, I just don’t like a “religion” that wants to kill me.
    I’m quietly confident that as soon as an alternative is found to muslim oil, the ummuh will be isolated, quarrantined even, muslims deported, and left to get on with their lives in their own cesspool countries. Every muslim capable of logical thought, and with a grain of human decency, will want to leave the biggest and most evil cult on the planet.
    islam is a blight on the world, founded by a sex mad, power mad tyrant.

  323. in2thefray Says:

    Elric: Shouldn’t the Dutch champion their rights. Isn’t that applicable to the Belgians,English and French. It is up to the majority to assure that the laws of the sovereign nation are enforced. You seem to be under the misguided perception that the Muslim minority and the European Islamist sub minority are wrenching exclusive rights and imposing their will. In fact it is the Euros who are rolling.Point some of that venom at them and the lazy ass euro electorate and maybe things will seem less dire.

  324. salahudin Says:

    Shiva: i can accuse you of changing the words too… it’s called INTERPRETATION… if you had deigned to READ what others are writing, you’d realize what an ass you continue to make of yourself.

    urban: the bigot is not bigoted in his own eyes. the ignorant is usually not so in his own eyes… and so on.

    think about it… what do i have to gain by telling you you’re wrong about muslims? if you had made the same statement about hindus or christians, i’d be doing the same… :/

  325. cerebate Says:

    shiva
    By my reading, salahudin hasnt changed the meaning of the words. But i have seen the complete absence of Logic and Scientific method in posters like elric and yourself.

    In one of your posts you seem to have suffered personal loss due to Islamic terrorism, and thats truly sad and should not have ever happened.
    But you seem to let that cloud whatever reason/logic you may have once had. If you want to stop the causes for your loss and prevent it in the future , you need people like salahudin , eagle on your side. You also need the majority of muslims on your side. Your blog and your posts here will prevent that. First step is get rid of the hate , revenge.

  326. Elric66 Says:

    Look at the term bigot, you dont even use it correctly. A bigot is someone who oppose ALL other views. We just oppose Islam.

  327. Eagle Says:

    Ah, Elric,

    Check out wiki

  328. Elric66 Says:

    big·ot (bĭg’ət) Pronunciation Key
    n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

    Sorry doesntr compute.

  329. salahudin Says:

    American Heritage Dictionary – Cite This Source
    big·ot (bĭg’ət) Pronunciation Key
    n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

  330. salahudin Says:

    ahh we posted together.

    “Sorry doesntr compute.”

    yeah. no surprises there… 😛

  331. Elric66 Says:

    I guess by your definition you are a bigot eagle since you dont like my views. 🙂

  332. Elric66 Says:

    yeah my typing sucks. You got me there Sal.

  333. salahudin Says:

    ohh hey elric, check this out:

    “Can Islam Change?”
    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/can-islam-change/

    damn good article, very well informed.

    i’m only showing this to you because i know most bigots can’t stand to have differing ideology shown to them. does it burn ya to read well documented articles like these??? 😛

  334. Eagle Says:

    Yeah, I’m bigoted against *&&holes

  335. Elric66 Says:

    But yet you still havent quoted any of my hate speech you accused me of.

  336. salahudin Says:

    “I guess by your definition you are a bigot eagle since you dont like my views. :-)”

    you really didn’t “get it” then… lol..

    here’s an english lesson for you:

    being INTOLERANT of differing ideologies is different from “not liking” an opposing view point.

    i never claimed you and people with your political ideologies should be… for example… KICKED OUT OF THE COUNTRY EVEN IF YOU WERE BORN HERE… as your friend said about muslims, right here on eagle’s blog.

    that’s the difference between intolerance and dislike.

    and now you know.

    really, you shouldn’t have dropped out of high school. 😛

  337. Elric66 Says:

    Eagle doest like his posters providing links. Didnt you get the memo? 🙂

  338. Eagle Says:

    Just yours Elric, since you feel the need to spam my blog.

  339. Elric66 Says:

    “really, you shouldn’t have dropped out of high school. ”

    Wow Eagle, I thought you enforced the golden rule. 🙂

  340. salahudin Says:

    and here’s another blog post by a muslim woman who wears the hijab:

    http://nonowrites.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/your-dress-is-your-address/

    she shows a picture of herself in the hijab with friends wearing no hijab and a spaghetti tank top sort of thing:

    she has this to say about them: “Most of my friends weren’t in Hijab and I don’t have any problem with it too. Hijab is not a barrier.

    So how about sisters who didn’t wear Hijab? And how about sisters who wears it on and off like wearing it only in the university and they take it off outside?

    To me, there are a lot of reasons for them to not wearing Hijab. My mother also not wearing Hijab and I don’t have any problem with it. I also have a lot of friends with no Hijab. ”

    talk about a conservative muslim being nice and tolerant eh?

    yeah.. surely this religion is all about war and beheadings, eh? 😛

  341. Elric66 Says:

    You just dont like Islam in a bad light, admit it Eagle.

  342. Elric66 Says:

    “yeah.. surely this religion is all about war and beheadings, eh? ”

    Ill go by Mohammeds example, not hers. Or is she as much an authority on Islam as her prophet?

  343. salahudin Says:

    elric, she’s following the example OF the prophet..

    what YOU assert is the “example of the prophet” is wrong because it’s taken out of context and even translated by unfriendly critics of islam.

    now i won’t say islam is completely without its problems. i see those issues like womens rights, slavery issues, etc etc etc… but then again, those issues are also in other religions… so i criticize them all equally.

    what i DON’T do is to solely criticize islam… and what i dislike is bigotry clouding people’s minds about a particular ideology and/or people… and then they go around pretending to be a bigger authority on that ideology than the ADHERENTS OF THAT IDEOLOGY ITSELF!

    what’s even MORE stupid is that such people argue against apostates that have virtually nothing to gain by pointing out discrepancies in your point of view.

    and the bottom line is that you’re just not being academically correct about islam, BECAUSE of your virulent hatred of it.

  344. Elric66 Says:

    “elric, she’s following the example OF the prophet..”

    So if she spread Islam by the sword, that would be ok too? After all, thats what Mohammed did.

    I also see the consequences of the Islamicfication of Europe. Is that a good thing or bad thing?

  345. salahudin Says:

    “So if she spread Islam by the sword, that would be ok too? After all, thats what Mohammed did.”

    to what are you relating this? and why are you talking about “ifs” and not about the reality of her decency?

    you can’t NOW say this isn’t bias…

    surely even YOU realize you just made a huge blunder here

  346. Elric66 Says:

    You said she was following the example of Mohammed. I pointed out what else Mohammed did and asked if it would be ok to follow that example.

    And you dodged my question on the Islamicfication of Europe. 🙂

  347. Eagle Says:

    salahudin,

    I just got your email. Thanks for the information 😀 Obviously that is something I will look into.

  348. salahudin Says:

    it wasn’t a dodge because it is NOT the topic.

    what you are doing though is dodging the topic: she is a conservative muslim, following strict islamic ideals and is very tolerant of opposing view points. and she says she learned to be this way through islamic teachings… (backed up with theological sources too)

    explain to everyone here why you don’t want to discuss this.

    explain to everyone here why you avoid learning from her about islam and instead go to anti-islamic websites for your information?

    explain to ME why i should take you seriously if you’re going to ignore contradictory evidence and yet assert you’re a rational, un-bigoted individual.

    if you can HONESTLY answer those without sarcasm, insults, ad hominems etc… just.. honestly explain yourself, then sure i’ll discuss whatever you want. but you have to satisfy the topic at hand first.

  349. Elric66 Says:

    Discuss what? That some Muslim girl is tolerant of others so therefore Islam is a religion of peace and we should overlook the root causes of Islamic terrorism?

    If thats the case, why do so many Muslims in so many countries “misunderstand” Islam?

  350. salahudin Says:

    “That some Muslim girl is tolerant of others so therefore Islam is a religion of peace and we should overlook the root causes of Islamic terrorism?”

    not so simple. a muslim girl IS tolerant of others BECAUSE of islam.

    shouldn’t you be exploring the discrepancy between what YOU believe is islam and what muslims themselves (en masse!) believe is islam?

    isn’t that odd? of course it is… anyone can see that’s really weird.

    so if you explore this issue, a few FACTs are quickly revealed:

    1- your sources are anti-islamic in nature
    2- your understanding of islam IGNORES the majority of muslims’ interpretation of islam
    3- your understanding of islam ENDORSES the TERRORIST’S interpretation of islam.

    hence you insist the root cause of islamist terrorism is the doctrine of islam.

    that makes sense, doesn’t it? well, i haven’t said anything controversial, i’ve just stated facts… because it is still left up to argue which interpretation is correct…

    right?

    feel free to argue all you want that the terrorist is right about islam.

    and that most muslims are wrong… AND an apostate of islam, a complete atheist… who routinely attacks the concept of god and religion on his blog… who obviously has nothing to gain by defending islam since his own muslim community feels threatened by his dissent (LOL!) and hence tries to stay away from him… is ALSO asserting that you’re wrong about islam?

    are you truly broad minded and HONEST enough to admit that all these little clues give you a hint that there is SOME dissonance between what islam actually is and what you believe it is?

    would i be UNREASONABLE to ask you to explore that possibility? not to ACCEPT it as reality, but to actually EXPLORE it… no commitment necessary… hmm? am i INSANE to ask that?

    i don’t think i am.

  351. Elric66 Says:

    1- your sources are anti-islamic in nature

    The Qur’an is unIslamic?

    2- your understanding of islam IGNORES the majority of muslims’ interpretation of islam

    Because Muslims are peaceful, doesnt mean its because of Islam.

    3- your understanding of islam ENDORSES the TERRORIST’S interpretation of islam.

    They know the Qur’an, the hadiths and the history of Islam better than you.

  352. Eagle Says:

    Elric,
    You really are, beyond hope. Just a bigot, who lacks common sense. Who lacks the ability to learn anything outside his own narrow view. What a sad sad miserable life you must lead.

  353. Elric66 Says:

    Because I dislike Islam I lack common sense and have a narrow view?

  354. Elric66 Says:

    Lets put your bigotry and narrow view to the test.

    Is the Islamicfication of Europe a good thing or bad thing in your view? I believe its a fair and honest question.

  355. salahudin Says:

    elric & eagle and others:

    i want you all to read this brilliant article written by one of the reformers of islam: ali eteraz

    http://www.jewcy.com/daily_shvitz/islamterrorislamismcensorshipmurderstupiditynoise

    really well written.

    elric, coming back to topic:

    “1- your sources are anti-islamic in nature

    The Qur’an is unIslamic?”

    now you’re trying to insult me with your sacasm. i told you to leave it behind. and your source is not the quran, it’s anti-islamic websites that use a SELECTIVELY translated (read: wrongly translated) OUT OF CONTEXT assertion of the quran.

    and you and i are intelligent enough to KNOW that putting things into context is academic honesty. 🙂 and vice versa!

    “2- your understanding of islam IGNORES the majority of muslims’ interpretation of islam

    Because Muslims are peaceful, doesnt mean its because of Islam.”

    says you. Muslims themselves INSIST they are tolerant and peace loving BECAUSE of islam… so who are you to be an authority on THEIR PERSONAL AND INDIVIDUAL BELIEF!??? who made YOU a judge over them?

    ESPECIALLY since i know most of them can quote you the hadith and quranic verses WITHOUT having to refer to some website because they know it by heart: they DERIVE their moral guidance from those verses which leads them to be nice and tolerant.

    you may be sitting there and thinking this is all a lie… that for some diabolical reason i’m lying to you. i’m NOT, dude. this is blunt and frank honesty here. i’m NOT trying to pull wool over your eyes. i’m not asserting islam is “divine” or some crazy shit like that… all i’m doing is showing you that islam HAS led a LOT of people to be great and nice.

    don’t you think it’s a BIT TOO convenient for you to dismiss nice muslims who QUOTE the quran and hadith as the source of their virtue, as simply being nice on their own and not because of islam?

    isn’t that a TAD bit TOOOOO convenient? or am i totally deluded? i’m not an agent working on the behalf of some secret islamic propaganda organization you know?? lol

    you don’t need to AGREE with my point of view, but i know for certain it doesn’t take a gargantuan imaginative effort for you to realize that your disregard of the evidence of nice muslims is just a bit TOO convenient.

    doesn’t that sort of scream: “i don’t want to consider islam as being tolerant!” ??? it is unreasonable and un-objective to exclude such a possibility…

    “3- your understanding of islam ENDORSES the TERRORIST’S interpretation of islam.

    They know the Qur’an, the hadiths and the history of Islam better than you.”

    Yes and no.

    I’m probably smarter than them because i’m receiving an academic education that allows me to critically think… and they don’t have that ability. so i wouldn’t be too surprised if i could flummox them with some intellectual arguments based on islamic theology. 🙂

    anyways, most TRADITIONAL and modern islamic scholars disagree with the terrorists’ understanding of islam. that again is a hint that they’re wrong.

  356. salahudin Says:

    elric, for the sake of whatever religion or ideology you follow, please consider that you’re wrong about islam.

    consider nice muslims as being nice BECAUSE of islam. look into the quotations by nice muslims to the nice parts of the quran and the hadith… as a source of their virtue. take it seriously… consider it.

    i’m not a bad guy because i ask you to consider it right? you and i probably share a lot of issues against islamic sharia even. we can all get along… but dude… let’s make a flipping effort eh?

    how about it?

    try.

  357. Elric66 Says:

    All that and you didnt answer why so many Muslims in so many countries “misunderstand” Islam. Why is that Sal?

  358. salahudin Says:

    sidestepping the topic again, elric? i promised you that i’ll discuss it once you’re able to satisfy the CURRENT topic…

    🙂

    so will you commit to at least exploring the possibility that islam isn’t all that as bad as you think? you don’t need to accept that, but commit to at least exploring that possibility.

    that’s a reasonable request, right? 🙂

  359. Elric66 Says:

    I am sorry Sal, I truly believe this is a war for civilization and its Islam thats at war with us. Armageddon perhaps, I dont know. But I do know that in Islamic teachings, Islam teaches that Jesus will come back to break the cross and make war with the kafirs. He will be 2nd to the Mahdi, who resembles the anti-Christ. Whether its true or no, it doesnt matter, its Islamic teachings and thats enough. I see whats hapening in Europe and I dont want that for the US. Do you? As an athiest, you should. A Christian or Jew will fare better under Sharia law than an athiest will. As Mark Steyn said “All I have to do is grow a beard, get a few wives and dunk my head”

  360. Elric66 Says:

    Sal, I know about the peaceful abrogated verses that were written while Mohammed was in Mecca. You know, when Islam was still small and weak. I also know the Islamic calendar started when he went to Medina and raised the sword in Islam’s name.

  361. Elric66 Says:

    And its not sidestepping. If you can give one Muslim girl as an example that Islam is peaceful, I can ask why so many in so many countries get it wrong.

  362. salahudin Says:

    well if you won’t commit to exploring the possibility, then you and i have nothing to talk about.

    as for abrogation… 😛 not everything was abrogated, my “friend”. as for europe: they’re learning what pluralism truly is… as for american muslims: they’re faring far better because america is FAR MORE a tolerant and pro-pluralistic society (being a land of immigrants!) than europe is, which has a history of bigotry, fascism etc.

    unsurprisingly, islamofascists quote right wing european fascistic literature often.

    and thank you, but i know what the quran says about atheism. there is no verse in the entire quran that calls for killing or harming atheists (unless you take INCOMPLETE quran verses). the worst thing the quran says is about my judgement in the “afterlife” of which i’m not too afraid….lol

    anyways, i’m off now… thankfully, elric, i have muslim friends whose company i enjoy. 🙂 cya.

  363. Elric66 Says:

    “as for europe: they’re learning what pluralism truly is”

    Yes they are. They will be like Yemen soon enough for Islam is incompatible with pluralism.

  364. Elric66 Says:

    “unsurprisingly, islamofascists quote right wing european fascistic literature often.”

    No, they quote the Qur’an and the hadiths. If they quote right wing european fascistic literature, its out of context. Right? 🙂

  365. salahudin Says:

    “They will be like Yemen soon enough for Islam is incompatible with pluralism.”

    ludicrous statement… that’s what i call a blatant attempt at demonizing a people and/or their ideology.

    classic bigotry.

    “No, they quote the Qur’an and the hadiths. ”

    seems like someone doesn’t know much about islamist terrorists… 😛

    post what you want. i’m off.

  366. Eagle Says:

    Shiva,

    I am going to put up a post just for you. Please read it.

  367. urban Says:

    Salahudin,
    Instead of trying to justify/excuse the violence in islam to us bigots, why not try and convince your ex co-religionists that islam is all about peace. There seems to be a large number of them that need convincing. At the same time, you might like to explain to them that you are very knowledgeable regarding islam, as you used to be a muslim , but decided to leave the faith. Over in the UK tonight there is a TV programme where a number of muslims who converted to Christianity explain how their lives have been threatened since leaving the “no compulsion in religion” religion. It might get posted on you tube, you should catch it. I’ll watch it and up date you if you like. I expect the TV producers are all bigots and racists, and the victims all actors/stooges, and all the people who threatened their lives don’t understand their religion properly, and should go to someone like you for a translation of the real meaning behind phrases like “if he leaves his religion, kill him”

  368. urban Says:

    Elric66,
    I’ll answer it for you cos I expect Eagle won’t.
    Mo was a warlord, liar, thief, pedo,slaver, and murderer. He was though, a great salesman to sell that garbage to so many people.
    He was no a prophet of God,just a mad cult leader, a sort of cross between Charles manson and Hitler.

  369. salahudin Says:

    urban and elric are the only true bigots here…

    do we see any islamist talking hatred? nope…

    between eagle, myself, cerebrate and the two bigots elric and urban, which one is espousing hatred and anger?

    what would yoda say? fear (phobia) leads to anger & hatred (bigotry) which leads to the DaaaAAArrKkkk SiDddDeee…

    even if they both think they’re right, they can’t deny they wouldn’t be accept by yoda in the jedi academy, as warriors of light.

    😛

  370. urban Says:

    Salahudin, not only do we hear islamists constantly talking hatred, we see their actions on a daily basis all over the world. I don’t want to exterminate muslims, I just would like them to return to their cesspools, where they can kill each other, stick their buts in the air and wail and howl at the moon god.The west will use their own oil or use our free and inventive minds to get along without it, and islam will wither and die.

  371. urban Says:

    It’s been posted at LGF.Salahudin, if you are an apostate I wouldn’t advertise the fact.,

  372. shiva Says:

    It’s been posted at LGF.Salahudin, if you are an apostate I wouldn’t advertise the fact.,

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27089_Video-_Being_an_Apostate_in_Britain&only

    Brave man

  373. salahudin Says:

    Urban said: “I don’t want to exterminate muslims, I just would like them to return to their cesspools,”

    cesspools eh?

    definition:

    cess·pool (sěs’pōōl’) Pronunciation Key
    n.

    1. A covered hole or pit for receiving drainage or sewage, as from a house.
    2. A filthy, disgusting, or morally corrupt place.

    Muslims come from cesspools?

    surely even that fellow awake… even elric maybe… (and shiva?) can see how that’s clearly a bigoted statement…

  374. shiva Says:

    Sorry I am inclined to side with urban

    Five dead in Gaza ‘sewage tsunami’

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1576633.ece

  375. salahudin Says:

    alright shiva.. it’s a free internet so you’re free to choose what label you want for yourself, based on your own point of view. 🙂 bigot.

  376. cerebate Says:

    salahudin
    “Muslims come from cesspools?
    surely even that fellow awake… even elric maybe… (and shiva?) can see how that’s clearly a bigoted statement”

    You are very optimistic, aren’t you?

  377. shiva Says:

    Call me what ever you want.

    But never call me
    Fajr

    Zhuhr

    Asr

    Maghrib

    Isha

    They suck

  378. urban Says:

    Lets be fair, who would want to live in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan etc etc. Beautiful countries where liberty and freedom are cherished or cesspools?
    Clearly, one who speaks the truth is a bigot.
    And I really don’t care if you call me a bigot, carry on

  379. cerebate Says:

    Heh an example of Bigot Logic?
    “Call me what ever you want. But never call me..”


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: