Hate

Hate magnify

  

I have been to plenty of hate blogs in the past couple of months. Both Muslim and non-Muslim. I have also had plenty of comments on at least one of my blogs, against Islam in general. I have been to blogs where Muslim writers were/are trying to dispel the myth that Islamist/Jihadist, are ‘true’ Muslims. And what I see shocks me.

A great many non-Muslims spend their time cursing everything Muslim. And try to convince people like me, that it isn’t radical Islamist, but Islam as a whole that is causing the problem. It isn’t someone like Amin Husseini who perverted Islam, but he was only acting the way he did because that IS Islam. I have seen time after time, moderate Muslim blogs who are trying to show other Muslims that the radicals are wrong. Some of the comments from non-Muslims are surprising to me. In my humble opinion, it seems to me, that instead of attacking those moderate Muslims and trying to show where they are wrong…yes that is what some are doing. You should do your best to support these people. You should also be doing your very best to educate Muslims that the radicals are wrong, not the other way around.

The moderate Muslims who blog about the radicals, trying to educate Muslims in general ARE doing something worthwhile. They should be supported. We should all do our best to try and do the same thing, in whatever way we can. It always amazes me when I see non-Muslims doing their best to ‘educate’ Muslims that they are NOT ‘true’ Muslims unless they are killing a bunch of people. We should ALL be a part of the SOLUTION, not adding to the problem.

Muslim seems to be the new “black”.  Was it right what we did to Japanese Americans during WW2??  How about how Black Americans were treated through out our history, for no other reason than the color of their skin.  Now we repeat history, but this time it is Muslims.  It wasn’t right then, and it’s not right now.

What is the purpose in spewing hate?? What is the purpose in trying to convince moderate Muslims that they are wrong?? What would you think if I started writing in an attempt to convince Muslims that they aren’t Muslim unless they are killing people?? Seriously, how stupid is that?? We don’t have enough problems with terrorists that you want to create a few more?? Does that make sense to anybody??

It saddened me to see a Muslim, who has a blog showing other Muslims why the radicals are wrong (just in case they had any doubt), say, that all she wanted was just one person to say that, ‘The world is better because of a Muslim, not in spite of’. Where have we come, when Muslims feel so alienated that they want just one non-Muslim acknowledge them as being of worth. That should be something that should upset you as much as it did me. Most of you are concerned about radical Islamist/Jihadist, that’s why you read this blog, but with the type of hate and bigotry that is going on out there, in people who are suppose to know better… How do you think that will affect a Muslim who is unsure who is right, us or the radicals??

It seems I spend a lot of time apologizing to Muslims for the actions of bigots, why?? Because of what I just said. Some of us, civilized, educated, Westerners, need to start acting like adults and not little kids. I’ve said this before, it seems it can’t be said enough. I am trying to say as plainly as possible why we need to be a part of the solution, not part of the problem. Your actions are affecting someone whether you realize it or not. Make sure that those you are influencing, are being influenced in the positive not the negative.

Below is the comment I told you about. Please be mindful on how your influencing people. Why should anyone feel like this person?? What is wrong with us, that we have come to this?? Personally I am ashamed to see how some act and talk toward Muslims.

Dear Eagle,

I, personally, appreciate for your sincere effort to communicate with Muslims. May God bless you for your effort.

But, do you know what is my wildest dream is?; to be able to make even only one person in this life to say “World is better with a Muslim”, since nobody see no value in Muslims and Islam. I do not want to be accepted as ‘other’, I want to be accepted as one of the unabandonable values of the life in at least one person’s eyes no matter who or what he/she is either Christian, agnostic, Budhist, Shamanist or atheist, better in a lot of people’s eyes of course, but I would settle for even only one single any non-Muslim person. )

Even though there certainly are values in the Islam and Muslims, everybody seems to agree that the ‘WORLD WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF THOSE MUSLIMS DO NOT EXIST EVER’. I reject and protest this rejection, and I strongly empathize Jews as they have been experiencing the similar treatment all over the world. Please, no offense. It is the human nature. In a Muslim country for example, a Christian or Jew would be treated as ‘different or strange other’, but not with as extreme rejection as Muslims receive. )

Peace,

P.S.  That kitty is saying What the Feck, so don’t get any ideas     

   

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154 Responses to “Hate”

  1. cerebate Says:

    So which blog does this lady wants someone to say the world is better because of a muslim?

  2. Eagle Says:

    Cerebate,

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/the-suicide-bomber/#comment-1035

    Comment 41

    There are some things I don’t agree with on their blog, evidently there is something somewhere by some guy who is a anti-Semite, at least that is what Shiva said. But they are making an effort to do the right thing which is more than I can say for some people….who shall remain nameless 😀

  3. alexonhere Says:

    hello eagle, I post at jihad watch but am interested in genuine, civil debate. Cerebate invited me over and I’ve accepted. You write:

    “It seems I spend a lot of time apologizing to Muslims for the actions of bigots.”

    By “actions” do you mean derogatory comments about Islam and Muslims in general? Most of this is on forums like jihad watch or LGF which Muslims do not ever visit, least of all moderate Muslims.

    Also, you have to bear in mind what generates the kind of harsh comments you refer to. Read the daily litany of crimes (actions) by radical Muslims against all others, any/all Non-muslims, and that is what generates such anger and backlash. Yes it gets too broad and too nasty at times but –importantly– it remains “just” speech. Muslims are not being murdered in cold blood by Non-muslims as radical Muslims are doing to Non-muslims. Yes they are being killed on the battlefields but that’s what they’re spoiling for.
    Muslim civilians are never targeted by Non-muslim forces.

    But I’m getting off-topic. My main point is that you seem to be so worried about hurt feelings, whereas so much worse is being done to innocent Non-muslims on a daily basis around the world today; Buddhist schoolteachers being beheaded in southern Thailand, Christian schoolgirls being beheaded in Indonesia, Russian schoolchildren being massacred in Beslan. To me, THAT is the kind of HATE to worry about. Only Non-muslims get murdered, beheaded etc. simply because they are not Muslims.

    I do agree that Muslims who do not subscribe to or condone supremacist Islam should not be painted along with them (the militants) as terrorists etc. I am not in the “The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim” camp. But moderate Muslims must come to grips with the cancer that is spreading among their co-religionists and act against it before they are seen as silent collaborators.

    Anyway, enough for my first post. I’ll see if it appears before I post further. Hello cerebate is you’re reading. I look forward to some civil debate with you here if you’re still up for it.

  4. Eagle Says:

    I also bear in mind that the number one target of Islamist are Muslims. Why do you think that is?? The radicals think they are right, and anyone who doesnt believe the way they do is an apostate and worth nothing but death. They have told me this themselves.

    So I spend my time trying to advise both Muslims and non-Muslims of the danger. I was cursed to have elric on my other blog run off all my Muslim readers and commentors. So he came here and and brought his friends with him.

    My goal is to inform. Both MUSLIM and non-Muslim, thats it, pretty simple. Some aren’t happy with that. Too bad, too sad. I am not here to argue with people who think that I am ‘clueless’ to be mild, there were much more things said because I refused to believe the way they did.

    “Only Non-muslims get murdered, beheaded etc. simply because they are not Muslims.”

    Hate to differ with you but there are a mulititude of Muslims who are dead that would argue the point. The bottom line…My goal is to inform ALL people, not just non-Muslims. I can do it without hate. I can do it the way my faith tells me to do it. And I will.

  5. Eagle Says:

    One more thing, I am starting a new series on Monday which will take all my time and concentration. I will get back to the other stuff when I am done with this series.

  6. snatchmaker Says:

    As alexon says above, there is a mountain of disturbing evidence about Muslim actions and thoughts around the world, whereby the absolute separation of “radical Islamist” and “ordinary Muslim” is not such an iron wall, but apparently shows signs of permeability.

    Just to pick one example out of a hat, consider Somalia:

    1) several attacks against non-Muslim international relief workers in October–December 2003. On October 5, 2003, the Italian nun Annalena Tonneli—known as Mother Theresa of Africa and who had served in Somalia for thirty years “founding a hospital, orphanages and schools”—was killed by two armed men in front of the hospital. (Three years later, another nun, Sister Leonella (who had helped Somalian children for 40 years of her life in Somalian and Kenyan hospitals), was shot dead by two Muslims three days after the Muslim cleric of the Mogadishu mosque told his congregation to go out and kill Christians as the appropriate response to the Pope’s lecture that had so inflamed Muslims around the world.) On October 20, 2003, a British couple Richard and Enid Eyeington—working for SOS Children’s villages in Somaliland—were shot dead by several gunmen in their home inside the school compound. In November 2003 a Kenyan Christian working for the Seventh Day Adventist mission in Gedo, South West Somalia, was reportedly murdered by Islamist radicals…”

    The zero tolerance for Christians was epitomised by the words of a Sheik who pronounced a death sentence on them in a 2003 interview:

    “… Sheikh Nur Barud, vice chairman of the influential Somali Islamist group Kulanka Culimada…stressed that “all Somali Christians must be killed according to the Islamic law. A Muslim can never become a Christian but he can become an apostate. Such people do not have a place in Somalia and we will never recognize their existence and we will slaughter them”. The Sheikh concluded his interview by saying “Somalis are 100 percent Muslim and they will always remain so”.

    2) In December of 2006, in the state of Minnesota in the USA, over 1,500 Somalian Muslims demonstrated in support of the extremist jihad putting briefly into place extremist Islamic sharia laws (such as punishing people for playing CDs of music, dancing, watching movies, etc.) — stemming from the same extremism and hatred represented under #1 above — that had been successfully foiled by Ethiopian and more moderate Somalian forces. Where were the demonstrations of Somalian (or other) Muslims AGAINST that Somalian extremism? *cue sound of crickets chirping in the silence*

  7. Tyrone Williams Says:

    “Muslim seems to be the new “black”. Was it right what we did to Japanese Americans during WW2?? How about how Black Americans were treated through out our history, for no other reason than the color of their skin. Now we repeat history, but this time it is Muslims. It wasn’t right then, and it’s not right now.”

    Thats quite an accusation. Do you have any facts to back that up?

  8. Eagle Says:

    Here, look at this and see how many of these victims are Muslims….and why are they victims, because they don’t believe the same way as the killers, thus they are apostates. ALL Shiite Muslims are considered apostates. The same can be said for ANY Muslim who serves in an Army of ANY state. The same is said for ANY Muslim who votes in ANY state. The same is said for ANY Muslim who doesn’t think or act like the killers. This isn’t a secret, they have made their views well known. Islamist consider Apostates to be lower or worse than non-Muslims, they call for the death of them, PERIOD. So should I warn them of this?? I think I should. Maybe, just maybe, they are unaware of the views of the Islamist. In that case, I have started writing about it to inform them. That is my goal. My ONLY goal. I do it in a positive way. I refuse to condemn an entire group of people because of the actions of a few.

    Tyrone,
    If you read ‘Then and Now’ and ‘Then or Now the Key’ You will see why I said what I said. I have seen some of the most hateful comments made over something as stupid as a footwashing station. Which had NOTHING to do with Islamist, but was aimed at Muslims in general.

    Date Country City Killed Injured Description
    9/28/2007 Pakistan Tank 1 12 Talibanis kill a Pakistani soldier with a remote-controlled bomb.
    9/28/2007 Thailand Pattani 3 5 Three policemen assigned to protect teachers are murdered by Muslim militants.
    9/28/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 4 4 Four local soldiers are murdered in an RPG attack by radicals screaming ‘Allah Akbar.’
    9/27/2007 India Pulwama 1 1 The Mujahideen abduct and torture two civilians. One is then shot to death and the other released.
    9/27/2007 Iraq Riyadh 2 0 Two brothers are shot to death by sectarian rivals.
    9/27/2007 Iraq Baghdad 14 9 At least two women are among fourteen Iraqis murdered by Freedom Fighters.
    9/27/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two civilians are brutally murdered in separate attacks by suspected Islamic militia.
    9/26/2007 Algeria Boumerdes 2 0 Islamic fundamentalists bomb a police vehicle, killing two officers.
    9/26/2007 Pakistan Miranshah 2 0 Two villagers are kidnapped and beheaded by Taliban extremists.
    9/26/2007 Iraq Shurqat 7 5 Seven Iraqis are killed by two Jihad car bombs.
    9/26/2007 Iraq Sinjar 10 9 al-Qaeda bombers kill ten villagers who opposed them by blowing up their home.
    9/26/2007 Iraq Baghdad 32 28 Thirty-two Shiites are massacred by Sunni radicals in a double bombing on their neighborhood.
    9/26/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 2 1 Religious extremists ambush a Danish military patrol, killing two members.
    9/26/2007 Somalia Kismayo 1 0 Islamists kill a religious cleric in front of his child.
    9/26/2007 Pakistan Orakzai 23 0 Sunnis and Shiites clash over ownership of a holy shrine. Some two dozen are killed in the violence.
    9/25/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 5 Two people are killed when Islamic militias stage a terror attack against a police patrol.
    9/25/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Teenage Jihadis shoot a 59-year-old Buddhist teacher to death at a bus stop.
    9/25/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 22-year-old construction worker is shot to death by Muslim militants.
    9/25/2007 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two cop and a security guard are murdered in separate drive-by attacks by Islamic radicals.
    9/25/2007 Iraq Basra 3 20 A Fedayeen suicide bomber murders three Iraqis.
    9/25/2007 Iraq Baghdad 15 31 Two car bombings and various other Jihad attacks leave fifteen Iraqis dead.
    9/25/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Islamists ambush a security patrol, killing one member.
    9/25/2007 Thailand Yala 1 2 A man is gunned down inside his home by radical Muslims.
    9/25/2007 Algeria Jijel 3 0 Three security guards are murdered when Islamic fundamentalists open up with automatic weapons at point-blank range.
    9/25/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 5 4 Five local cops are killed when a suicide bomber drives up next to them and detonates.
    9/25/2007 Algeria Boumerdes 1 0 An off-duty prison guard is shot to death by Islamic fundamentalists.
    9/24/2007 Algiera Ma-Labiod 1 5 Islamic fundamentalists kill a local soldier with a homemade bomb.
    9/24/2007 Iraq Abu Maria 6 17 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills a half-dozen innocents at an intersection.
    9/24/2007 Iraq Baghdad 16 3 Two children and a woman are among fifteen Iraqis gunned down by Freedom Fighters.
    9/24/2007 Iraq Baqubah 26 30 An al-Qaeda suicide bomber detonates inside a mosque, killing over two dozen people gathering for a reconciliation meeting.
    9/24/2007 Iraq al-Abara 20 0 A mass grave is discovered containing twenty students abducted and murdered by Sunni radicals.
    9/24/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two local officials are assassinated by Islamic militias.
    9/24/2007 Afghanistan Baghlan 4 0 Sunni terrorists kill four people with a roadside bomb.
    9/24/2007 Afghanistan Farah 3 0 Islamic fundamentalists kill two Spanish soliders and an Afghan interpretor in a bomb attack.
    9/23/2007 Pakistan Degan 2 0 Two local villagers are kidnapped and beheaded by the Taliban in separate incidents.
    9/23/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 0 A young married couple are killed inside their home by Muslim gunmen.
    9/23/2007 Iraq Muqdadiyah 20 5 Twenty bodies, blindfolded and executed, are found in three locations.
    9/23/2007 Afghanistan Ghazni 2 0 Two civilians are kidnapped and beheaded by the Taliban.
    9/23/2007 Pakistan Malakdin Khel 3 3 A woman and her two children are killed in a clash between rival Islamic groups.
    9/23/2007 Afghanistan Badakhshan 12 1 The Taliban claim responsibility for the brutal ambush of a minibus, in which a dozen are massacred.
    9/23/2007 Afghanistan Farah 3 10 Three local guards are killed when religious extremists attack a civilian convoy.
    9/23/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 24-year-old female teacher is shot to death by Islamic radicals in her home.
    9/22/2007 Thailand Yala 0 9 Nine children in a teashop are severely injured in a Muslim bombing.
    9/22/2007 Pakistan Sorandara Musakhel 2 0 At least two people are killed when a Muslim mob attacks a series of houses following a jirga ruling.
    9/22/2007 Iraq Baqubah 5 0 Five Iraqi officers are captured by al-Qaeda and beheaded in video to shouts of ‘Allah Akbar!’
    9/22/2007 Iraq Baghdad 9 13 Nine people are killed in sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
    9/22/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 53-year-old man is shot to death by Muslim militants.
    9/22/2007 Pakistan Swat 1 2 Islamic militants kill a policeman and capture two others in an assault on a checkpoint.
    9/22/2007 Afghanistan Kunduz 2 4 Two local police are murdered by religious extremists.
    9/22/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 3 8 Two women are among three killed in Taliban shelling.
    9/21/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 2 8 A civilian and a French soldier are blown to death by suicide bomber.
    9/21/2007 Pakistan Swat 2 4 Pro-Taliban gunmen attempt to assassinate a former official, killing two others instead.
    9/21/2007 Thailand Yala 2 0 A woman and man are murdered by militant Muslims in separate shooting attacks.
    9/21/2007 Iraq Basra 3 0 Three women are killed by suspected fundamentalists over ‘immoral activity.’
    9/21/2007 Iraq Yusufiya 3 0 Three people are kidnapped and tortured to death by sectarian rival within the Religion of Peace.
    9/20/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 1 0 A tribesman is kidnapped and executed by the Mujahideen.
    9/20/2007 India Pulwama 1 2 The Mujahideen kidnap three villagers, beating two and strangling the third.
    9/20/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 23-year-old civilian is shot to death by Muslim radicals.
    9/20/2007 Afghanistan Gereshk 6 0 Six civilians, including women and children, are killed when Taliban ‘fighters’ use them as human shields.
    9/20/2007 Iraq Mosul 3 0 A woman and her daughter are among three people killed by Islamic terrorists.
    9/20/2007 Iraq Baghdad 13 20 Thirteen Iraqis are murdered by sectarian Jihadis in at least two attacks.
    9/20/2007 Pakistan Swat 1 4 Muslim militants kill a local policeman with a bomb.
    9/20/2007 Nepal Kapilvastu 12 24 Twelve more Hindu victims of Muslim mob violence are counted.
    9/19/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 2 A government official and a civilian are murdered by Islamic militias in separate attacks.
    9/19/2007 Ingushetia Nazran 4 2 Suspected Islamic militants ambush a police vehicle with automatic weapons, killing two occupants. Two other cops are killed in a separate bombing.
    9/19/2007 Iraq Muqdadiya 9 5 A suicide bomber and random Jihad attacks leave nine Iraqis dead.
    9/19/2007 India Srinagar 3 20 Three Indian troops are killed in a brutal ambush on their bus convoy by Lashkar-e-Toiba.
    9/19/2007 Afghanistan Badghis 4 4 Four local police are killed when the Taliban assault a remote police station.
    9/19/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic militants gun down a 45-year-old woman working on a rubber plantation.
    9/19/2007 Lebanon Beirut 9 30 Muslim bombers assassinate an anti-Syrian political leader and eight others in a Christian neighborhood.
    9/18/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is murdered by Muslim gunmen while escorting teachers to school.
    9/18/2007 Iraq Baghdad 17 7 Various sectarian attacks leave at least seventeen dead.
    9/18/2007 Iraq Baghdad 8 15 Jihadis bomb a residential neighborhood, killing eight innocents.
    9/18/2007 Pakistan Shawal 1 4 Islamic militants open up on a security patrol with automatic weapons, killing at least one member.
    9/18/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 1 Two civilians are killed when Islamic militias assault a barracks.
    9/18/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 0 A Buddhist is among two civilians killed by Islamic terrorists.
    9/18/2007 India Kosadi 1 3 A team of HIndu inspectors are pelted with stones by a Muslim mob. On member is killed.
    9/18/2007 Iraq Baghdad 7 30 A double car bombing near a morgue sends seven Iraqis to Allah.
    9/18/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A school administrator is shot to death by Holy Warriors.
    9/17/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 2 Two people are killed in a grenade attack and a man is shot to death in a separate shooting by Islamic militias.
    9/17/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A woman is shot to death by Islamic gunmen.
    9/17/2007 Ingushetia Gazi-Yurt 1 1 Mujahideen snipers kill a border guard.
    9/17/2007 Pakistan Mir Ali 1 0 A tribesman is murdered by Muslim militants.
    9/17/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 8 7 A Fedayeen suicide bomber murders eight Afghans.
    9/17/2007 Iraq Baghdad 21 32 Ramadan violence, including a car bombing at a mosque, leaves twenty-one dead.
    9/17/2007 Pakistan Waziristan 15 1 Taliban terrorists attack local troops, killing at least fifteen.
    9/16/2007 Iraq Baghdad 19 13 Various terror attacks leave nineteen Iraqis dead in sectarian violence.
    9/16/2007 Iraq Hilla 6 7 A child and a pharmacist are among six people killed in separate attacks by Islamic militants.
    9/16/2007 Iraq Muqdadiya 14 10 al-Qaeda militants shoot fourteen villagers to death in a brutal attack.
    9/16/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two men driving in a vehicle are shot to death in a brutal ambush by Islamic radicals.
    9/16/2007 Iraq Tuz Khormato 8 22 A Fedayeen bomber murders eight patrons at a caf�.
    9/16/2007 Nepal Kapilvastu 2 0 A Hindu taxi driver is among two people beaten to death by a Muslim mob, which also torches hundreds of Hindu houses.
    9/15/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two men are murdered in a drive-by shooting by Muslim radicals.
    9/15/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 3 One local soldier is killed when Thai Islamists detonate a bomb.
    9/15/2007 Afghanistan Kunar 3 0 Religious extremists kill two children with rockets and behead an adult male.
    9/15/2007 Iraq Abu Saida 2 0 al-Qaeda terrorists kill two Sunni sheikhs.
    9/15/2007 Iraq Baghdad 13 2 Sectarian Jihadis rack up thirteen dead rivals in various attacks.
    9/15/2007 Iraq Baghdad 11 18 Two children are among eleven killed by a Fedayeen suicide bomber at a bakery.
    9/14/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 2 5 Two children are killed when Islamic terrorists plant a bomb near their home.
    9/14/2007 Pakistan Tarbela 17 36 A suicide bomber kill seventeen Pakistani soliders in an attack near a dam.
    9/14/2007 Pakistan Peshawar 1 0 A pro-peace cleric is assassinated by Islamic radicals.
    9/14/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim gunmen murder a 29-year-old woman.
    9/14/2007 India Baramulla 2 0 Two civilians are murdered in their home by the Mujahideen.
    9/14/2007 Algeria Zemmouri 3 5 Three people are killed, and two suffer amputation when Islamic fundamentalists place a bomb in a small town.
    9/14/2007 Iraq Baiji 11 16 A suicide bomber detonates his truck next to a restaurant, killing sixteen innocents.
    9/14/2007 Iraq Hawija 1 1 Radical Sunnis gun down a woman and injure her daughter.
    9/14/2007 Iraq Baghdad 9 0 Three farmer and three beheading victims are among nine people killed in sectarian attacks.
    9/14/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 5 Two civilians are killed in a grenade attack by Islamic militias.
    9/13/2007 Iraq Baghdad 17 13 A car bombing is one of several Jihad attacks that leaves seventeen civilians dead.
    9/13/2007 Iraq Mosul 2 0 A bakery worker is among two people shot to death by Sunni snipers.
    9/13/2007 Afghanistan Badakshan 1 0 An aid worker is shot to death in a suspected Taliban attack.
    9/13/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A cop is gunned down by Islamists.
    9/13/2007 Iraq Ramadi 4 0 al-Qaeda bombers take down a pro-government Sunni leader and three others.
    9/13/2007 Somalia Huriwa 6 0 Two civilians and four local policemen are killed in a brutal ambush by Islamic militants.
    9/13/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 3 0 Three men, including a 28-year-old Buddhist, are shot to death in separate attacks by radical Muslims.
    9/13/2007 Pakistan Karachi 7 5 Seven people are killed when Islamic fundamentalists toss grenades into a minibus carrying sectarian rivals.
    9/12/2007 Iraq Baghdad 28 22 Jihadis manage to take down twenty-eight ordinary Iraqis in at least four attacks around the country.
    9/12/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamic militias assassinate a money changer at a market.
    9/12/2007 Afghanistan Paktia 3 0 A civilian and two policemen are killed in two separate Taliban bombings.
    9/11/2007 Ingushetia Ordzhonikidzov. 3 0 Two young men and their father are brutally murdered in their home by suspected Islamic militants.
    9/11/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 1 A middle-aged Buddhist man is shot to death by Muslim radicals while riding his motorbike.
    9/11/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 2 7 Two Afghan truck drivers are murdered by a suicide bomber.
    9/11/2007 Iraq Baghdad 13 12 Sectarian Jihadis rack up thirteen bodies in a 24-hour period.
    9/11/2007 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 17 16 Seventeen people are killed when a 15-year-old suicide bomber detonates on a minibus.
    9/11/2007 Israel Zikim 0 69 Gaza militants fire a rocket into Israel, injuring nearly seventy people.
    9/11/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A young Buddhist man is shot to death by Islamists.
    9/10/2007 Iraq Saqlawiyah 4 2 A suicide bomber kills four Iraqis at a police checkpoint.
    9/10/2007 Iraq Tal Marag 10 78 Ten innocents are blown apart by a religious fanatic driving a truck bomb.
    9/10/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 4 0 Three children and their mother are taken out by Jihadi mortars.
    9/10/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 5 A Muslim gunman boards a bus and then shoots a passenger to death.
    9/10/2007 Iraq Baghdad 14 19 A Jihad car bombing at a hospital is one of several attacks that leave a dozen Iraqis dead.
    9/10/2007 Afghanistan Gereshk 29 57 Over two-dozen Afghans are massacred by Taliban suicide bombers in a small town.
    9/10/2007 India Kupwara 1 5 A local soldier is killed in a Lashkar-e-Toiba attack.
    9/10/2007 Sudan Haskanita 25 0 Twenty-five villagers are massacred in an aerial and ground assault by government forces.
    9/10/2007 Pakistan Makeen 2 0 A rocket believed to have been fired by Taliban militants hits a house, killing two, includng a woman.
    9/9/2007 Iraq Mosul 4 8 Three woman and a man are murdered in their home by Islamic terrorists.
    9/9/2007 Iraq Mahmudiya 2 7 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills two civilians.
    9/9/2007 Iraq Basra 2 0 Two headless bodies, including that of a woman, are found.
    9/9/2007 Iraq Baiji 7 2 Sunni radicals assault a police station, killing seven officers.
    9/9/2007 Iraq Balad 4 15 A suicide bomber in a fuel tanker kills four local soldiers.
    9/9/2007 Pakistan Larkana 1 2 A woman is killed for leaving her husband’s house without permission by her brother-in-law.
    9/9/2007 India Kolkata 1 0 A Musim is murdered for his intention to convert to Hinduism.
    9/9/2007 Ingushetia Malgobek 1 2 The Mujahideen ambush local soldiers with grenades, killing one.
    9/8/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Terrorists murder a 30-year-old Buddhist woman.
    9/8/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 7 0 A man disguised in a burqa massacres seven local soldiers in a brutal grenade attack.
    9/8/2007 Thailand Songkhla 1 0 A plantation worker is shot to death in front of his wife by militant Muslims.
    9/8/2007 Algeria Dellys 28 47 Twenty-eight innocent people are blown to bits by a teenaged al-Qaeda truck bomber.
    9/8/2007 Iraq Kufa 5 8 Five people are blown apart in a marketplace bombing by Sunni radicals.
    9/8/2007 Iraq Baghdad 15 45 Jihadis slaughter fifteen people with a car bomb along a city street.
    9/8/2007 Afghanistan Nimroz 2 8 The Taliban attack a food relief convoy, killing two guards.
    9/8/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 1 3 A suicide bomber kills one other person.
    9/8/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Islamists murder two electronics vendors at an open-air market.
    9/8/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A 16-year-old boy is shot three times in the head by suspected Muslim radicals.
    9/8/2007 Pakistan Kohistan 4 26 Religious radicals open up on a group of soldiers at point blank range, killing four. Elsewhere a bomb injures twnety-four civilians.
    9/8/2007 Iraq Diwaniya 1 0 Islamic gunmen murder a woman in front of her home.
    9/7/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 3 5 An armed attack by Muslim terrorists on a mosque leaves three people dead.
    9/7/2007 Uzbekistan Tashkent 1 0 A prominent 55-year-old Jewish man is stabbed to death in a heinous attack.
    9/7/2007 Iraq Mosul 4 0 Radical Sunnis kidnap and murder four policemen.
    9/7/2007 Ingushetia Nazran 1 0 An elderly woman is cut down by Islamic terrorists with automatic weapons at point-blank range.
    9/6/2007 Pakistan Bannu 2 0 Islamic fundamentalists behead two prostitutes.
    9/6/2007 Algeria Batna 14 107 An al-Qaeda linked suicide bomber massacres twenty-two people waiting to see the country’s president.
    9/6/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Islamic terrorists attack a police station, killing two officers.
    9/6/2007 Iraq Tikrit 3 17 Jihadis bomb a petrol station, killing three innocents.
    9/6/2007 Iraq Baghdad 19 5 Nineteen victims of sectarian violence are killed here and in Mosul.
    9/6/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A rubber tapper is killed when Islamic radicals set off a bomb on his plantation.
    9/6/2007 Thailand Yala 1 2 Muslim extremists kill a police officer with a bomb.
    9/6/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 An elderly man and a woman are killed in a violent grenade attack by Islamic militants.
    9/5/2007 Iraq Mosul 1 28 A suicide bomber kills one other person.
    9/5/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 A 68-year-old man is shot off his motorbike by Muslim terrorists. Another civilian is killed in a separate drive-by attack.
    9/5/2007 Somalia Medina 1 0 A local soldier guarding a market is shot to death by Islamic militias.
    9/5/2007 Thailand Yala 1 4 Islamists bomb a grocery store, killing a man and injuring four, including two children.
    9/5/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 2 3 Two Afghan police are killed when religious extremists bomb their vehicle.
    9/4/2007 Pakistan Kohat 2 0 Two civilians are murdered by the Taliban.
    9/4/2007 Afghanistan Paktika 2 2 A suicide bomber attempts an assassination, killing two bodyguards instead.
    9/4/2007 Pakistan Rawalpindi 24 74 At least two dozen people are murdered when Islamic bombers attack a bus and a bazaar in separate attacks.
    9/4/2007 Afghanistan Kunduz 2 4 Two Afghan cops are murdered by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    9/4/2007 Chechnya Gukhoi 1 4 One person is killed when Islamic gunmen attack a school and a house.
    9/3/2007 Iraq Baghdad 18 8 Eighteen people are killed by sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
    9/3/2007 Thailand Yala 1 1 A 55-year-old rubber tapper is shot to death while riding to work with his wife.
    9/3/2007 Iraq Ramadi 2 13 A suicide bomber blasts two innocent souls to Allah.
    9/3/2007 Iraq Baghdad 8 0 Eight electrical workers are kidnapped and murdered by Freedom Fighters.
    9/2/2007 Pakistan Khyber 1 1 An Afghan refugee is shot to death by Sunni militants.
    9/2/2007 Afghanistan Kunar 7 0 Seven Afghan security personnel are killed in roadside bombings by religious extremists.
    9/2/2007 Iraq Taji 2 8 Two Iraqis are murdered by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    9/2/2007 Iraq Baghdad 22 16 A Jihad car bombing and various shootings leave about two dozen Iraqis dead.
    9/2/2007 Pakistan Wana 4 10 Islamists bomb a pharmacy, killing four civilians.
    9/2/2007 Somalia Suuqa Xoolaha 3 3 Islamist terrorists ambush and kill three Somali soldiers.
    9/2/2007 India Kathua 2 0 Two children are killed in a Mujahideen bombing.
    9/1/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A Thai soldier is killed in a Muslim terror attack.
    9/1/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Islamic gunmen kill two civilians at point-blank range at a market.
    9/1/2007 Pakistan Bajur 5 9 A suicide bomber kills five Pakistanis at a police checkpoint.
    9/1/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 22-year-old Buddhist student is shot to death by Muslims while sitting on his motorcycle.
    9/1/2007 Iraq Baghdad 24 3 Sectarian Jihadis shoot, blast and stab two dozen to death in various attacks.
    9/1/2007 Iraq Mosul 6 9 A child is among six people killed by Islamic terrorists in two attacks.
    9/1/2007 Iraq Basra 1 0 A Shiite cleric is shot to death by Muslim rivals outside a mosque.
    8/31/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 1 0 Religious fundamentalists gun down a barber.
    8/31/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 1 4 A suicide bomber pulls his car up next to a crowd of people at an airport and detonates.
    8/31/2007 Ingushetia Karabulak 3 0 Islamic terrorists murder a female teacher’s husband and her two sons, one of whom was disabled, in her home.
    8/31/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A railroad worker is murderd by Muslim terrorists on the job.
    8/31/2007 Ingushetia Nazran 4 0 A car bomb takes out four people.
    8/31/2007 Iraq al-Jallam 4 7 A suicide car bomber kills four Iraqi police.
    8/31/2007 Pakistan Khairpur 1 0 A woman is gunned down by her uncle in the presence of her husband on suspicion of adultery.
    8/31/2007 Pakistan Mingora 3 8 Three people are killed in a bombing by Muslim radicals.
    8/31/2007 India Baramulla 1 0 A retired policeman is brutally murdered by the Mujahideen.
    8/31/2007 Afghanistan Kunar 10 5 At least ten Afghan women and children are killed by a Taliban mortar attack on their neighborhood.
    8/30/2007 Pakistan Swat 7 3 A brutal attack by Islamic militants on a security patrol leaves seven dead.
    8/30/2007 India Behak 1 0 A civilian is abducted and executed by the Mujahideen.
    8/29/2007 Pakistan Islamabad 2 0 A Christian pastor had his wife are brutally murdered in their home by Muslim gunmen.
    8/29/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two civilians are shot to death by Islamic militias.
    8/29/2007 Iraq Muqdadiyah 8 0 Eight Iraqi policemen are killed in a bombing by Sunni radicals.
    8/29/2007 Iraq Mosul 6 0 Six people are brutally killed by Islamic terrorists. Two are beheaded and one is burned.
    8/29/2007 Afghanistan Bharmal 6 12 An Islamic suicide bomber detonates in a market, killing six innocents.
    8/29/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 3 Militant Muslims gun down a village head.
    8/29/2007 Iraq al-Bu Ajeel 6 0 A woman and her five children are murdered when Jihadis storm their home.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 2 A guard for the Thai queen is cut down in an ambush by Islamic radicals.
    8/28/2007 Afghanistan Paktia 3 6 A religious extremist murders three NATO soldiers helping to build a bridge.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 40-year-old Buddhist woman is shot to death by Muslim militants as she arrives for work at a rubber plantation.
    8/28/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 4 6 Four civilians are pumped full of bullets as Somali Islamists vow to keep ‘fighting.’
    8/28/2007 Iraq Baghdad 22 27 Sectarian attacks leave two dozen dead.
    8/28/2007 Iraq Karbala 3 1 A small boy is among three Shia pilgrims cut down by Sunni snipers.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two men are killed by militant Muslims in drive-by shootings.
    8/28/2007 India Pulwama 1 0 A schoolteacher is abducted and murdered by the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A Buddhist woman is brutally killed by militant Islamists.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Muslim radicals kill a 67-year-old Buddhist construction worker and then set his body on fire.
    8/28/2007 Thailand Songkhla 1 0 Muslims murder an ice cream vendor on the side of the road.
    8/27/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A female teacher is murdered by Muslim radicals in front of her pupils.
    8/27/2007 Iraq Baghdad 15 9 Shia pilgrims are shot dead by Sunni snipers, adding to the sectarian violence.
    8/27/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A second school teacher is murdered by Islamic extremists.
    8/27/2007 Iraq Fallujah 10 11 A suicidal Sunni blows himself up near a rival mosque, taking ten innocents out with him.
    8/26/2007 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two rubber tappers are murdered by Islamic radicals while on their way to work.
    8/26/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 9 Two people are killed in separate grenade attacks by Islamic extremists.
    8/26/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 5 Two young boys and an adult are killed by a bomb planted in a school yard.
    8/26/2007 Iraq Baghdad 12 9 A female pilgrim and several children are among Shias targeted by radical Sunnis, as a dozen people are killed.
    8/26/2007 Iraq Mahmudiyah 1 2 Sunni terrorists take out a child in a mortar attack.
    8/26/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 1 0 A 40-year-old civilian is shot to death by Taliban extremists.
    8/26/2007 Pakistan Swat 4 2 A suicide bomber takes out four Pakistanis at a checkpoint.
    8/25/2007 Iraq Khan Bani Saad 8 7 Eight people are kidnapped and brutally tortured to death by al-Qaeda militants.
    8/25/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 12 A Buddhist woman is cut down by an Islamic bomb attack in front of a grocery.
    8/25/2007 India Hyderabad 42 70 At least forty-two people, including children, are blown to bits by bombs placed at a food stall and an amusment park.
    8/25/2007 Iraq Baghdad 17 30 A car bomb attack near a shrine is one of several sectarian attacks that leave at least seventeen people dead.
    8/25/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A barber is murdered by Muslim extremists.
    8/25/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 10 5 Religious extemists kill ten Afghans in two bombings.
    8/24/2007 Pakistan Miranshah 5 10 Five Pakistanis are killed by a suicide bomber at a checkpost.
    8/24/2007 Iraq Diwaniya 2 0 Sunni gunmen shoot two construction workers to death.
    8/24/2007 Iraq Hawija 1 0 Religious fundamentalists murder a barber.
    8/24/2007 Iraq Samarra 3 9 An 11-year-old girl is among three people killed in an al-Qaeda attack on their village.
    8/24/2007 Somalia El Ilan 1 1 Muslim gunmen open fire on a minibus, killing a journalist.
    8/24/2007 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 0 A 22-year-old man is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
    8/24/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 71-year-old man is shot to death by Muslim terrorists as he is riding to a teashop.
    8/24/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 50-year-old schoolmaster is forced off the road by Muslim radicals, who shoot him and then set fire to his body.
    8/23/2007 Afghanistan Helmand 3 13 Three Afghan civilians are murdered in a Taliban suicide attack.
    8/23/2007 Iraq Ibrahim Yehyia 25 20 al-Qaeda militants attack two Sunni villages with mortars and machine guns, killing twenty-five villagers.
    8/23/2007 Iraq Mosul 9 12 Nine people are killed in various attacks by Islamic terrorists.
    8/23/2007 Iraq Baghdad 16 17 A child is among sixteen people murdered by Jihadis in various attacks.
    8/23/2007 India Handwara 1 0 Islamic militants shoot an innocent man to death inside his home.
    8/23/2007 India Poonch 1 0 A policeman is abducted and beheaded by Muslim radicals.
    8/23/2007 Afghanistan Zabul 10 0 Ten Afghan security guards are massacred in an ambush by Sunni extremists.
    8/22/2007 Iraq Kufa 1 0 A female university professer is stabbed to death by Islamic radicals.
    8/22/2007 Afghanistan Nuristan 2 11 Two Afghan soldiers are killed when religious extremists stage an attack on a base.
    8/22/2007 Afghanistan Paktia 2 4 Two engineers are shot to death by the Taliban.
    8/22/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamic militias are suspected in the murder of a civilian at a market.
    8/22/2007 Somalia Suqa Holaha 2 5 Two people are killed when Islamists hurl a grenade into the street.
    8/22/2007 Iraq Tikrit 2 12 Jihadis kill two civilians with a roadside bomb.
    8/22/2007 Iraq Tal Afar 2 5 Radical Sunnis take out two pipe layers with a bomb blast.
    8/22/2007 India Doda 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen.
    8/22/2007 Iraq Beiji 45 80 A suicidal Sunni drives a truck bomb into a police station, incinerating twenty-five police and twenty civilians.
    8/22/2007 Ingushetia Nazran 1 5 Islamic terrorists attack a security convoy, killing at least one member.
    8/22/2007 Pakistan Quetta 0 16 A barbershop is one of two sites attacked by fundamentalists with grenades.
    8/22/2007 Afghanistan Khost 4 8 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills four Afghans on a highway.
    8/22/2007 Iraq Muqdadiyah 6 50 A suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six Iraqis.
    8/21/2007 Pakistan Mohallah 1 4 A woman is killed when fundamentalists toss a grenade into a brothel.
    8/21/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslims kill a man elected to replace another official who was slaughtered along with his family.
    8/21/2007 Iraq Baghdad 17 14 Two passengers on a minibus are among fourteen Iraqis murdered by Jihadis in various attacks.
    8/21/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A Buddhist security guard is murdered by Mulslim extremists, who then attempt to cut the head from the body.
    8/21/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 5 An Islamist walks into a restaurant and shoot a civilian to death.
    8/21/2007 Iraq Latifiya 9 2 Nine members of a family, including a baby, are murdered by Shiite radicals inside their home.
    8/21/2007 Afghanistan Zabul 6 0 Religious extremists ambush and kill six Afghan cops.
    8/21/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is shot to death by Muslim terrorists while sitting in a tea shop.
    8/21/2007 Philippines Zamboanga 0 14 Abu Sayyaf sympathizers place a bomb at a city plaza, injuring fourteen people.
    8/21/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A Buddhist official is gunned down by Islamic radicals.
    8/21/2007 Lebanon Nahr al-Bared 2 0 Fatah al-Islam gunmen kill two Lebanese soldiers.
    8/21/2007 Pakistan Bannu 4 0 Pro-Taliban militants attack a checkpoint with rockets, leaving three Pakistani soldiers and a woman dead.
    8/20/2007 Sri Lanka Trincomalee 2 0 Two men (ages 29 and 54) are killed by Jihadi gunmen.
    8/20/2007 Pakistan Hangu 4 18 A woman passerby is among four killed when a Fedayeen suicide bomber rams into a military vehicle.
    8/20/2007 Iraq Baghdad 20 36 Two Jihad bombings and random shootings leave over twenty people dead.
    8/20/2007 India Shopian 1 0 A farmer is shot to death by the Mujahideen.
    8/20/2007 Iraq al-Rumeitha 4 2 Shiite militants assassinate a provincial governor.
    8/19/2007 Iraq Baghdad 31 51 A Jihad mortar attack and various shootings leave more than thirty people dead, including children.
    8/18/2007 Pakistan Jandola 1 0 al-Qaeda militants kidnap and behead a teacher.
    8/18/2007 Afghanistan Ghazni 2 2 Religious extremists kill two Afghan cops with a roadside bomb.
    8/18/2007 Pakistan Miran Shah 1 2 A suicide bomber detonates at an army checkpoint, killing at least one Pakistani.
    8/18/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 15 26 Fifteen Afghans, mostly civilians, are blown to bits by a suicidal Sunni along a highway.
    8/18/2007 India Doda 1 0 The body of a 26-year-old woman is found murdered days after she was taken by the Mujahideen.
    8/18/2007 Iraq Khalis 7 35 A baby is among seven people killed when Holy Warriors pump mortars and rockets into a residential neighborhood.
    8/18/2007 India Kandi 1 0 The Mujahideen chop out a 70-year-old man’s eyes and behead him.
    8/18/2007 Pakistan Lakhi Ghulam Shah 2 0 A woman and her suspected lover are shot to death by her brother-in-law.
    8/18/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 3 A Taliban suicide bomber targets a road construction crew, killing four guards.
    8/18/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 1 0 Taliban militants shoot a man to death in his home.
    8/18/2007 Pakistan Bannu 1 5 A cop is killed in a hand grenade attack by Islamic militants.
    8/18/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 4 An elderly man and a woman are killed in separate attacks by Islamic militias.
    8/18/2007 India Rajouri 1 0 The Mujahideen kidnap a civilian and kill him in captivity.
    8/17/2007 India Rajouri 1 0 A civilian is kidnapped and killed in captivity by radical Muslims.
    8/17/2007 India Baramulla 2 0 A policeman and his elderly father are brutally murdered inside their hom by Islamic militants.
    8/17/2007 Pakistan Khyber 7 0 Seven people are killed in clashes between radical Islamist groups.
    8/17/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 3 42 Two separate bombings by Sunni radicals kill three civilians and injure over forty.
    8/17/2007 Iraq Haditha 3 0 Three people are kidnapped, tortured and shot to death by sectarian rivals.
    8/17/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 2 Three young children under the age of 10 are slaughtered along with their father by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    8/17/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 1 Islamic militias rocket a house, killing a woman.
    8/17/2007 India Pulwama 5 3 Mujahideen use an IED to kill five Indian soldiers traveling along a road.
    8/16/2007 Pakistan Spinwara 2 4 Two soldiers are killed in an al-Qaeda IED attack.
    8/16/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 3 Two Somalis are killed in a mine attack by Islamic militias.
    8/16/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Islamic gunmen shoot two civilians to death at a market.
    8/16/2007 Iraq Baghdad 10 20 Ten Iraqis are blown apart when Islamic terrorists detonate a car bomb on a public square.
    8/16/2007 Pakistan Bajaur 2 2 A tribal elder and his guard are killed in a bombing by Islamists.
    8/16/2007 Iraq Baghdad 19 0 Nineteen victims of sectarian Jihadis are discovered by police.
    8/15/2007 Iraq Baghdad 22 4 Jihad attacks leave twenty-two Iraqis dead.
    8/15/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 3 1 Religious extremists kill three German police officers with a roadside bomb.
    8/15/2007 Somalia Afgoye 2 12 Militant Muslims throw a grenade into a market, killing two people.
    8/15/2007 Chechnya Avturi 1 0 A government official is killed when the Mujahideen attack his vehicle with grenades.
    8/15/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 6 1 Islamists kill six Somalis in two separate attacks.
    8/15/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 5 30 Islamic terrorists car bomb a marketplace, killing five people.
    8/15/2007 Iraq Hilla 5 12 A suicide bomber kills five people inside a judge’s home.
    8/15/2007 Pakistan Swabi 2 0 A teacher and student are killed when Islamists bomb a house.
    8/15/2007 Chechnya Grozny 1 0 A policeman is killed in a drive-by attack from militant Muslims.
    8/14/2007 Iraq Suwayra 3 0 Sunni extremists invade the home of a policeman and shoot his pregnant wife, son and brother to death.
    8/14/2007 Pakistan Jandola 1 0 Islamic radicals kidnap and behead a Pakistani soldier.
    8/14/2007 Afghanistan Zhari 7 0 Six Aafghan civilians and their guard are killed in an al-Qaeda rocket attack on their minibus.
    8/14/2007 Iraq Khalis 15 0 Fifteen Iraqi men are kidnapped and murdered by Islamic extremists.
    8/14/2007 Iraq Ghraiya 4 0 Jihadis kill three women and a man, who are sleeping on the roof of their home.
    8/14/2007 Iraq Sinjar 500 1500 Five separate suicide bombings by al-Qaeda militants targeted at a religious minority group kill five hundred innocents.
    8/14/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim radicals stab a 56-year-old man to death at his rubber plantation.
    8/14/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 2 A 26-year-old man is shot to death by Muslim militants.
    8/13/2007 Afghanistan Spin Boldak 5 3 Religioius extremists kill five Afghan police with a roadside bomb.
    8/13/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 38-year-old trader is murdered by Islamic gunmen.
    8/13/2007 India Bandipore 4 11 Four civilians are killed when Mujahideen militants hurl a grenade into a crowded street.
    8/13/2007 Iraq Samarrah 3 0 Three civilians are shot and killed by Islamic terrorists.
    8/13/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 12 Three civilians are killed when Islamic militants bomb a passenger bus.
    8/13/2007 Iraq Khanaqin 5 4 Radical Shiites kill five policemen with a bomb.
    8/13/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 2 A young boy is killed when Islamic militias assault a police station.
    8/13/2007 Lebanon Nahr al-Bared 1 0 A Fatah al-Islam sniper murders a Lebanese soldier.
    8/13/2007 Pakistan Swat 4 6 Four people are killed when Islamic terrorists detonate a roadside bomb against a passing vehicle.
    8/13/2007 Russia Novgorod 0 60 A militant Islamic group derails a commuter train with a bomb, injuring sixty people.
    8/13/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A man sitting in a tea shop is assassinated by Muslim radicals.
    8/12/2007 India Doda 1 0 The Mujahideen shoot a policeman to death as he is walking home.
    8/12/2007 Algeria Amdjoudh 3 0 Islamic fundamentalists kill three members of a security patrol with a bomb.
    8/12/2007 Pakistan Peshawar 1 0 A Sunni is gunned down by Shia radicals.
    8/12/2007 Iraq Hilla 3 0 Two women are among three people killed by Islamic terrorists.
    8/12/2007 Iraq Baghdad 20 22 Sectarian Jihadis rack up twenty Iraqi scalps.
    8/12/2007 Pakistan Miranshah 1 0 Two Afghan civilians are kidnapped and beheaded by Muslim radicals in separate incidents.
    8/11/2007 Iraq Qadisiya 6 0 Jihadis kille six Iraqis with a roadside bomb.
    8/11/2007 Iraq Baghdad 14 17 Fourteen people are killed in sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
    8/11/2007 Iraq Ishaqi 4 0 Islamic extremists kill and dismember four people.
    8/11/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 2 2 A journalist is killed by Islamic militias as he is returning from the funeral of a colleague murdered dies earlier.
    8/11/2007 Pakistan Hangu 3 2 Three police are murdered by Islamic militants.
    8/10/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 0 Three civilians are killed when Islamic militias attack with mortars and heavy machine guns.
    8/10/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Two men are shot by Muslim radicals. Only one survives.
    8/10/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 8 45 Islamic terrorists bomb a market, killing eight patrons.
    8/10/2007 Afghanistan Badghis 7 0 Seven Afghans are killed when Taliban extremists ambush a security patrol.
    8/10/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 0 Three government officials are assassinated by Muslim militants as they are walking home.
    8/10/2007 Iraq Ein Zala 4 14 Four Kurds are killed in a suicide bomb by Sunni fanatics.
    8/9/2007 Pakistan Mir Ali 2 0 Two tribesman are murdered by Taliban loyalists.
    8/9/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A woman dies from shrapnel injuries following a Religion of Peace grenade attack in a commercial district.
    8/9/2007 Iraq Baghdad 22 8 A man and his wife are among two dozen people killed by sectarian Jihadis in various attacks.
    8/9/2007 Turkey Kars 2 0 A 19-year-old boy beats his sister and divorced mother to death at the request of his father to ‘clean the honor of his family.”
    8/9/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 5 0 Five people are gunned down by Islamic radicals in separate drive-by attacks.
    8/9/2007 Philippines Maimbung 21 2 Abu Sayyaf terrorists ambush a security patrol, killing nine members. A dozen more are cut down in the ensuing firefight.
    8/8/2007 Iraq Samarra 8 2 Jihadis kill eight Iraqis with mortars.
    8/8/2007 Iraq Hawija 2 6 An infant and one other person are killed by Muslim terrorists.
    8/8/2007 Iraq Baghdad 15 19 A little girl is among those killed by Freedom Fighters in various attacks on civilians.
    8/8/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 66-year-old man is brutally shot to death by Islamists as he is walking in his orchard.
    8/8/2007 Iraq Baqubah 4 4 Four members of a family are murdered inside their home by Islamic terrorists.
    8/8/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Muslim gunmen storm a medical clinic and murder two Buddhist workers.
    8/8/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 4 0 Four people are shot to death by Islamic militias in separate attacks.
    8/8/2007 Thailand Yala 2 0 Muslims decapitate two elderly Buddhists, then set fire to their houses.
    8/8/2007 Pakistan Chargano 5 10 The Taliban lay siege to a village, killing five and wounding ten.
    8/8/2007 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two men are shot to death by Muslim radicals.
    8/8/2007 Iraq Baqubah 5 10 A fundamentalist bomber detonates himself in a barbershop, killing five innocents.
    8/7/2007 Chechnya Grozny 2 0 Two Russians are shot to death in a Mujahideen ambush.
    8/7/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 2 A roadside bombing by Muslim radicals leaves two Thai soldiers dead.
    8/7/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is murdered and his body burned by Islamic separatists.
    8/7/2007 Pal. Auth. Gaza 2 5 Two Gaza children, ages 6 and 8, are killed by a rocket fired at Israel by a Palestinian Islamic group.
    8/7/2007 Iraq Baghdad 21 9 Sectarian Jihadis rack up twenty-one dead Iraqis in various attacks.
    8/7/2007 Iraq Muqdadiya 1 1 Muslim gunmen open fire on children, killing one.
    8/7/2007 Pakistan Banda 1 0 A security patrol member is blown apart by Islamists while fetching water from a stream.
    8/7/2007 Somalia Banadir 2 4 A mother and her 11-year-old daughter are killed when Islamists detonate a roadside bomb.
    8/7/2007 Iraq Salah al Khalaf 7 8 Seven civilians are killed in a Mujahideen car bombing at a market.
    8/7/2007 Iraq Samarra 5 2 Three women and two children are killed in a Jihad mortar attack.
    8/6/2007 Iraq Baghdad 34 32 Thirty-four people are killed in various Religion of Peace attacks around the city.
    8/6/2007 Iraq Karbala 1 0 Islamic terrorists shoot the chairwoman for a humanitarian organization two times in the head.
    8/6/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim terrorists shoot a man to death in his home.
    8/6/2007 Iraq Qabak 33 54 A suicidal Sunni manages to kill thirty-four innocents in a Shiite neighborhood, which include seventeen children and ten women.
    8/6/2007 India Pulwama 1 0 A civilian is abducted four days earlier and murdered by the Mujahideen.
    8/6/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim terrorists gun down a 61-year-old civilian on his way home.
    8/6/2007 Iraq al-Aameryia 36 0 Thirty-six Iraqi heads are liberated from their bodies by Islamic Freedom Fighters.
    8/5/2007 Afghanistan Kunar 5 6 Five Afghan police are murdered in two terror attacks by religious extremists.
    8/5/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 0 Taliban extremists kill two civilians with a roadside blast.
    8/5/2007 Chechnya Tsa-Vedeno 3 0 Three people, including a child, are burned to death in their car by Holy Warriors.
    8/5/2007 India Doda 1 9 The Mujahideen gun down a cop and throw a grenade into a market, injuring nine civilians.
    8/5/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two Thai soldiers on motorcycles are shot and killed by Muslim radicals.
    8/5/2007 Iraq Baghdad 32 14 Sectarian Jihadis rack up over thirty Muslim rivals in various attacks.
    8/5/2007 Iraq Mosul 6 0 Two children are among six people kidnapped, tortured and executed by Islamic terrorists.
    8/5/2007 Iraq Mahmudiya 2 5 A suicide bomber slays two innocents at an auto repair shop.
    8/4/2007 Iraq Baghdad 26 13 A doctor is among over two dozen people killed by sectarian Jihadis in various attacks.
    8/4/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 3 Islamists recruit a teenager to throw a grenade into a funeral procession, killing one.
    8/4/2007 Pakistan Parachinar 8 43 At least eight people, including two young children, are killed when a suicide bomber attacks a car showroom and taxi stand.
    8/4/2007 Dagestan Sergokala 1 2 A police officer is gunned down by Islamic militants.
    8/4/2007 Pakistan Miranshah 4 6 Four Pakistanis are killed when Taliban militants attack a check-point.
    8/4/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 0 Two civilians are killed by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    8/4/2007 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 45-year-old guard is shot to death at point-blank range by Muslim radicals.
    8/4/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 3 2 A religious extremist kills three civilians in a suicide blast.
    8/4/2007 Thailand Yala 3 0 Three civilians in a pick-up truck are ambushed and murdered by Islamic terrorists.
    8/4/2007 Afghanistan Logar 4 3 Four Afghan police are killed when Sunni terrorists rocket their vehicle.
    8/4/2007 Somalia Suuq Baad 2 6 Two people are killed when Islamic militants hurl grenades into a crowded market.
    8/4/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 0 Four civilians are blown to bits when Holy Warriors target their vehicle with a roadside bomb.
    8/4/2007 Saudi Arabia Riyadh 2 2 Two maids are beaten to death by seven familiy members who accuse them of practicing ‘black magic.’
    8/3/2007 Afghanistan Kunar 3 5 The Taliban kill three Afghan police with a bomb attack on their vehicle.
    8/3/2007 Iraq Muhbabiya 17 0 Seventeen women, children and elderly Iraqis are found in a mass grave following an al-Qaeda massacre.
    8/3/2007 Iraq Baghdad 13 0 Thirteen victims of sectarian violence are found scattered throughout the city.
    8/3/2007 Iraq Diyala 4 9 Muslim gunmen murder two children and two adults in a brutal attack on a home.
    8/3/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamists force their way into a home to shoot a government official to death.
    8/3/2007 India Banihal 0 24 Two dozen people are injured when Islamic terrorists toss a grenade into a crowded marketplace.
    8/3/2007 Pakistan Swat 2 6 A suicide bomber kills two people and injures six from the same family.
    8/3/2007 Philippines Koronadal 1 12 A Christian pastor is killed in a bus bombing by a group linked to the Moro Islamic terror group.
    8/2/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 5 0 Five brothers who worked as day laborers are kidnapped and executed by Muslim terrorists.
    8/2/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 8 20 A mother and her two daughters are among eight killed when Islamic militias rain down mortars on a neighborhood.
    8/2/2007 Iraq Baghdad 30 8 Sectarian Jihadis shoot or blast thirty Iraqis to death in various attacks.
    8/2/2007 Iraq Balad 1 6 A young girl is killed in a mortar barrage by Muslim terrorists.
    8/2/2007 Pakistan Sargodha 1 1 A Fedayeen fires at police, killing one in a suicide bid.
    8/2/2007 Somalia Balad 1 4 An grenade attack on Ethiopians leaves one dead.
    8/2/2007 Thailand Pattani 2 8 Two Thai soldiers are killed in separate bombing and shooting attacks.
    8/2/2007 Iraq Hibhib 15 17 Fifteen people are killed when a sucide bomber detonates along a city street.
    8/1/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 11 A Buddhist woman is blown to bits when Muslim radicals bomb a shopping district.
    8/1/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 1 5 A suicide bomber kills an Afghan truck driver.
    8/1/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 6 A young boy is killed when Islamists throw a grenaded into a market. Two other bodies are found nearby.
    8/1/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 A father and son are murdered by Islamic terrorists at their home.
    8/1/2007 Thailand Yala 2 1 Islamists ambush a group guarding a train station, killing two members.
    8/1/2007 Lebanon Nahr al-Bared 1 0 A Fatah al-Islam sniper kills a Lebanese soldier.
    8/1/2007 Iraq Baqubah 25 40 Islamic terrorists bomb a marketplace, killing twenty-five patrons.
    8/1/2007 Iraq Baghdad 12 20 A dozen civilians are killed in various Religion of Peace attacks around the city.
    8/1/2007 Lebanon Nahr el-Bared 4 0 Four Lebanese soldiers are killed by Fatah al-Islam snipers and bombers.
    8/1/2007 Iraq Hibhib 14 0 Fourteen villagers are kidnapped and executed by Sunni militants.
    8/1/2007 Iraq Baghdad 15 25 At least fifteen people are blown to bits when a suicide bomber detonates in a city square.
    8/1/2007 Pakistan Bannu 1 0 Talibanis murder a Pakistani soldier taken hostage.
    8/1/2007 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 62-year-old man is shot to death by radical Muslims.
    8/1/2007 Iraq Baghdad 50 60 A Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates at a petrol station, killing at least fifty innocents.
    7/31/2007 Iraq Baghdad 12 12 A teacher and an engineer are among a dozen people shot and killed in various Jihad attacks around the country.
    7/31/2007 Ingushetia Magas 1 3 Muslim gunmen attack a bus carrying police officers, killing one.
    7/31/2007 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 The Taliban murder a 29-year-old Christian man taken hostage.
    7/31/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 5 3 Islamic terrorists blow up a minibus, killing five civilian passengers that included a woman.
    7/31/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 3 4 A 4-year-old child is among three people killed in a brutal rocket attack by Islamists shouting ‘Allah Akbar.’
    7/31/2007 Pakistan Bannu 1 4 Religious extremists ambush a group of soldiers, killing one.
    7/30/2007 Pakistan Miranshah 7 1 Four civilians are among seven killed by Taliban militants in two separate attacks.
    7/30/2007 India Kishtwar 1 0 A civilian is abducted and mudered by the Mujahideen.
    7/30/2007 India Ramban 1 0 Hizb-ul-Mujahideen members kidnap and behead a government teacher.
    7/30/2007 Pakistan Punjab 1 0 A Christian man is shot to death by two Muslims.
    7/30/2007 Iraq Kirkuk 4 0 A woman is among four people shot to death by Islamic radicals.
    7/30/2007 Iraq Balad 4 6 A suicide bomber kills six people with a loaded fuel truck.
    7/30/2007 Iraq Baghdad 12 47 At least a dozen Iraqis are killed in three bomb attacks by Islamic terrorists.
    7/30/2007 India Pulwama 2 6 Two children (ages 12 and 14) are killed when Islamists throw grenades at a tourist vehicle.

  9. Tyrone Williams Says:

    “If you read ‘Then and Now’ and ‘Then or Now the Key’ You will see why I said what I said. I have seen some of the most hateful comments made over something as stupid as a footwashing station. Which had NOTHING to do with Islamist, but was aimed at Muslims in general.”

    You are comparing my people being brought over as slaves and when freed had to endure 100 years of oppression and lynchings to people complaing about a group of people demanding that public places accomdate their worshipping needs? Are you serious?

  10. Eagle Says:

    I am comparing HATE for no reason other than the color of your skin. Or your religion. Or any other matter for that matter. When I referred to blacks, I am talking about having seperate bathrooms, about riding on the back of the bus, on numerous misdeeds done simply because of the color of their skin and no other reason period. How many times have blacks been referred as Apes?? Its the same now, just a different people. God forbid if you are black and Muslim.

    When I see so many people attacking Muslims based merely on their faith, and no other reason, in other words the talk over the foot washing station had NOTHING to do with radical Islamist, it had to do with Muslims in general. As a black man, you should also care if others are being mistreated.

    That is what is wrong in the world today. Everyone is so busy being ‘right’, or thinking only of themselves that they have lost the ability to empathize, to feel for their fellow human beings. Will it get better?? I personally don’t think so, it will only get worse. I say that based on my faith. But in the mean time, I do what I can do, to TRY and make a difference. To TRY and change hearts and minds. To TRY and reach out to others regardless of what faith they have. If we all did that, what do you think the world would be like??

    As a Christian, I follow the things that Jesus Christ taught. I follow the things that my mother taught me as a child. The amount of bile that has raised in some people actually surprised me. But without love in your heart, they will never understand. I have even been attacked by some people who claim to be Christian.

  11. Tyrone Williams Says:

    As a black man, I do not like it when people are treated other than their skin color. You claimed that Muslims are the new “blacks”. I havent seen anything that even remotely comes close. If anything, I see them given special treatment. The footbaths are actually a good example, I am glad you brought that up. I have never seen another religion that was so accomadated just because of their religion. Another example is in Vancouver where smoking on sidewalks is illegal except Muslims of course. In Seattle, Muslisms were in an uproar because the FBI posted pics of 2 men wanted for suspicion. The uproar was over that the FBI didnt consult them as they have in the past before going to the media. No, I wouldnt say its even close to the lynchings and John Crow Laws.

    Skin color is skin color. It doesnt make you act or think different. A religion is an ideology so it does make you act and think in a certain way. Two totally seperate issues.

    Lets not even get into Muslims enslaving and murdering my people in Sudan.

    “To TRY and reach out to others regardless of what faith they have. If we all did that, what do you think the world would be like??”

    That will never happen so I rather be on guard for faiths that seeks to oppress and conquer my way of life.

  12. Eagle Says:

    YOU, may not want to reach out, I do. I don’t like hate in any form. My faith teaches me to love the person but hate the sin. I try and follow that.

    I don’t think that all Muslims are believers of the terrorist ideology, which is why I do what I do. I think it is terrible the way we have treated blacks in this country. I think it is terrible the way we jailed Japanise Americans during WW2. I am a second generation Italian in the US. My grandfather was from Italy. He fought in WW2, but could have ended up in some camp along with the Japanise. Some of the most highly decorated service personel during WW2 were Japanise Americans. What we did to others was and is wrong.

    What some people do and say about all Muslims is wrong, and will only leave those Muslims thinking that maybe the radicals are right. That should concern every single non-Muslim out there.

    That is my personal feelings, you may disagree and that’s ok too. But I will continue to do what I do, based on my faith, and what I believe is right. All Muslims don’t want to oppress us and conquer our way of life.

  13. Tyrone Williams Says:

    “YOU, may not want to reach out, I do. I don’t like hate in any form. My faith teaches me to love the person but hate the sin. I try and follow that.”

    I dont hate either. Hate is a wasted emotion. Concern over an ideology that isnt compatible with ours isnt hate.

    “I don’t think that all Muslims are believers of the terrorist ideology, which is why I do what I do. I think it is terrible the way we have treated blacks in this country. I think it is terrible the way we jailed Japanise Americans during WW2. I am a second generation Italian in the US. My grandfather was from Italy. He fought in WW2, but could have ended up in some camp along with the Japanise. Some of the most highly decorated service personel during WW2 were Japanise Americans. What we did to others was and is wrong.”

    True but its not what Muslims are going through today. Not even close what my people went through. Dont you agree?

    “What some people do and say about all Muslims is wrong, and will only leave those Muslims thinking that maybe the radicals are right. That should concern every single non-Muslim out there.”

    If Muslims will decide to become jihadists because some people disagree with the tenants of Islam, we have a bigger problem than we thought.

    “That is my personal feelings, you may disagree and that’s ok too. But I will continue to do what I do, based on my faith, and what I believe is right. All Muslims don’t want to oppress us and conquer our way of life.”

    No, I dont believe all Muslims want to oppress and conquer us. What percentage do?

  14. snatchmaker Says:

    Tyrone wrote:

    “I wouldnt say its even close to the lynchings and John Crow Laws.”

    Not only are Muslims not being oppressed by the West (but actually are treated infinitely better by the West than their own Muslim countries treat them), the Islamic Sharia Law that so many Muslims believe is superior to all the “man-made” laws which “idolators” (mushrikoon) lived under is, in fact, a form of institutionalized intolerance and discrimination resembling the “Jim Crow” laws of the American South.

    Islamic Sharia Law mandates the politico-legal establishment of the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of non-Muslims. That’s why so many increasingly educated Infidels bristle at signs of Islamic insinuation like foot-washing basins, the refusal of cab drivers in the USA and Britain to pick up customers who are carrying alcohol or blind customers who need a seeing-eye dog, the new regulation against topless sunbathing on the River Seine in Paris, France, the erecting of a wall around a nudist beach in Italy, the applications to start up Canadian banks operating within the strictures of Islamic religious law, etc. All these things are inextricably woven into the fabric and texture of Sharia Law, and Sharia Law is outmoded, regressive, unjust and goes against the Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 which the modern West has used to articulate its ongoing progress (imperfect, but trying to be better with each passing generation).

    And the implicit sense of superiority — nay, supremacism — which inhabits the warp and woof of the fabric and texture of Sharia Law is also the same supremacism that animates the mujahideen, who are reacting against the tragic loss of power which Islam has suffered over the past 300 years against the backdrop of the spectacular ascendancy of global progress of the West.

  15. Eagle Says:

    Obviously what Muslims are going through are not to the extreme that blacks went through. But when talking about prejudice, the most extreme examples that we can point to are two. Anti-Semitism and anti-black. It was my attempt to show that hate is wrong no matter who is doing it. It has caused an untold number of deaths throughout history. It makes the people who engage in it, in the form I am talking about, no different then hater’s from history’s past.

    I find it disturbing when a Muslim wants just one non-Muslim to say that the world has value because of a Muslim, not inspite of it. I would think that everyone would find that disturbing. It is in fact a sad state of affairs if that is the way that Muslims think. I would like to think that we would all reach out to people who feel like this person does/did. But apparently not.

  16. Tyrone Williams Says:

    snatchmaker,

    I really can not dispute what you say. Its hard to say you are wrong when you see so much of this on a daily basis. I also dont think its hateful for the West which was founded on judeo christian values to tell Muslims that if they want to live here, they have to assimulate into our culture, not the other way around. Blacks have fought for generations for equality. It would be a tragedy that we finally reached our goals only to go back to be treated like 2nd class citizens by an ideology that was allowed to immigrate here and prosper.

    Eagle,

    Thank you for clearing that up. I aplogize if I was a bit sensitive on the matter.

  17. Tyrone Williams Says:

    Well I am off to play some hoops. It was a pleasure talking to you Eagle and Snatch.

  18. cerebate Says:

    alexon
    I dont think we disagree with anything major probably just nuances

    “Muslims are not being murdered in cold blood by Non-muslims”
    Untrue. Check India (Im born Indian hindu and yes hindu’s are murdered in cold blood too). Also muslims being murdered in cold blood by other muslims(e.g. Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan) and so on.

    “Muslim civilians are never targeted by Non-muslim forces”
    Untrue. Israel. America in Iraq. America in Afghanistan (google the videos)

    To be sure, there are more examples of muslims targetting non muslims rather than vice versa. However the reverse being ‘never’ the case is simply not true.

    “My main point is that you seem to be so worried about hurt feelings….. . But moderate Muslims must come to grips with the cancer that is spreading among their co-religionists and act against it before they are seen as silent collaborators”
    The latter part of this statement is what we agree with vehemently and yes the radicals do a lot of damage and the moderates aren’t that visible condemning them. The only people who can stop the extremism are the moderate muslims. And this for me is a significant difference between Eagles blog and Jihadwatch. Jihadwatch promotes an us v/s them conflict which is doomed to heavy loss , no matter what happens or who loses whereas eagle tries to point out that we need to talk things over with the moderates.
    The first part of this statement is related to this discussion. If we want the moderates on our side, to discuss and formulate solutions with us, we cant really have sites like Jihadwatch as our representative nor can we sit silently when people call their religion an instrument of war and their prophet any number of abuses – Even if they wanted to condemn the extremists, they will have nothing to do with people who make statements of the form above.

  19. alexonhere Says:

    Eagle, you write:

    “I also bear in mind that the number one target of Islamist are Muslims. Why do you think that is?? The radicals think they are right, and anyone who doesnt believe the way they do is an apostate and worth nothing but death. They have told me this themselves.”

    Yes, I agree, but more so in Muslim majority countries than in the West. In the West (with the exception of major Muslim immigrant concentrations) there is not that kind of pressure to deal with, or threats of death for apostasy etc. UNLESS the non-radical Muslim dares to speak out against the militants. Then they get threats and possibly worse. But if they keep quiet then there’s no risk to them at all.

    “So I spend my time trying to advise both Muslims and non-Muslims of the danger. I was cursed to have elric on my other blog run off all my Muslim readers and commentors. So he came here and and brought his friends with him.”

    I know of elric just barely. He does post on JW as do many others. There is a wide range of opinion on JW. Some of it is thoughtful and some of it not. Muslims are usually all lumped together it’s true. I try not to do that though I do have my moments if a particularly heinous crime is committed that I just finished reading about. However, although I don’t go along with lumping all Muslims together which is not fair, I do feel that Islam as a religion is fair game. I try to separate out the religion from the religionists because there is a wide-range in how the religion is followed.

    A note: I refer to Muslims in capital letters but I refer to Non-muslims with the “N” capitalized and the “m” small-case because as “Non-muslim” myself I don’t think the Muslim part of the description should be highlighted. I know it’s not grammatically correct but that’s how I feel.

    Eagle, you continue: “My goal is to inform ALL people, not just non-Muslims. I can do it without hate. I can do it the way my faith tells me to do it. And I will.”

    I can’t argue with that. Dialogue and communication can help foster better understanding. Even argument can foster better understanding if not agreement.

    Let me see if cerebate has replied and then we’ll go from there. Honestly I’m looking for good exchange with those who do NOT share my thinking about all these issues.

  20. alexonhere Says:

    Eagle, you mention the Japanese: “He fought in WW2, but could have ended up in some camp along with the Japanise. Some of the most highly decorated service personel during WW2 were Japanise Americans. What we did to others was and is wrong.”

    The Japanese were no angels in WWII either. Ask the Chinese what happened at Nanking and in many other areas of Japanese occupied China. And the Japanese prison camps (death camps really) for Non-japanese soldiers and civilians were some of the most brutal places you could ever imagine. Japanese-American soldiers did serve with high distinction in Europe fighting fascism, true enough.
    What we did to some others was wrong, yes, but what was done to us by others was wrong too. Nobody ever has a monopoly on virture or vice (well, Supremacist Islam is close to a monopoly on evil these days at least now that a lot of other nasty “isms” have been defeated.).

  21. alexonhere Says:

    Wow, excellent points and post on Sharia Law snatchmaker.

    Do you post at Jihad Watch? If not, please do. We need more of that kind of substance instead of the usual insults and venting (which I am not immune from making myself). Actually I think that criticizing Islam, even harshly so, is a necessary and useful thing. The only problem is that we’re just ‘preaching to the choir’ over there. Everyone pretty much agrees that Islam is the problem. Unfortunately it’s spread from that to “All Muslims are the problem”and worse in many cases.

  22. alexonhere Says:

    Hello cerebate, you write:

    “alexon
    I dont think we disagree with anything major probably just nuances”

    I don’t know yet. Either way is ok.

    “Muslim civilians are never targeted by Non-muslim forces”
    Untrue. Israel. America in Iraq. America in Afghanistan (google the videos)”

    I mean intentionally targeted, as policy. Certainly Muslim civilians have been killed by American, Israeli ,and “Coalition” bombs etc.

    ““Muslims are not being murdered in cold blood by Non-muslims”
    Untrue. Check India (Im born Indian hindu and yes hindu’s are murdered in cold blood too). Also muslims being murdered in cold blood by other muslims(e.g. Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan) and so on.”

    Well, yes, India has unique circumstances. I almost mentioned Kashmir but then left it out. And yes, as I replied to Eagle, I know that many Muslims are killed by other Muslims with the Shia-Sunni split being a particularly tense fault line. Interesting that you are Hindu by birth. There used to be a number of thoughtful Hindu contributors on JW.
    haven’t seen them in awile. too bad.

    I was right there with you well into your final paragraph, until you got to this part:

    “If we want the moderates on our side, to discuss and formulate solutions with us, we cant really have sites like Jihadwatch as our representative…”

    Again, I don’t think Muslim moderates are flocking to Jihad Watch for input on how to fend off the radicals. Having said that, it’s probably true that whatever moderates do show up, if they are true believers, would be repelled immediately by the harsh and hostile atmosphere (that is, if they read through the comment sections). But if they read all the articles which are also posted there, along with Robert’s usually insightful comments, they might come to fully realize what all the hostility is about.

    “…nor can we sit silently when people call their religion an instrument of war and their prophet any number of abuses ”

    Jihad Watch is but the tip of the iceberg in terms of the hostility which radical Islam has created among Non-muslims the world over. Yes it would be shocking for a peaceful Muslim to happen upon Jihad Watch and see the hostility for Islam and Muslims which is on display there. But only if viewed in a vacuum. The full context has to be considered, which is what I described to Eagle above: Buddhist schoolteachers and monks being butchered in S. Thailand, Christian schoolgirls being beheaded on the way home from school, Russian schoolchildren being massacred in Beslan, etc.

    Jihad Watch is a reaction to atrocities being committed all over the world by Muslims in the name of Allah and Islam and the Koran. Oh and there was a little thing now called 9-11. Before that there was no Jihad Watch (Americans were late to the party so we’re playing catch up).

    A thougtful, caring Muslim should already be in shock about what is happening in Islam unless he/she has his/her head buried in the sand. Jihad Watch should only confirm the fact that the house of Islam is on fire and spreading that fire to everything it comes in contact with. Should it be surprising that those who are being set afire should react with anger, lashing back?

    And more to the point; Supremacist Islam also does not exist in a vacuum. It comes from somewhere. Robert Spencer isn’t making up those verses which preach the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of all others. And the exhortations to violence which accompany those verses. Are the Islamists making up those passages they cite to justify their atrocities? No. Elements of Islam definitely do inspire and advocate the kind of violence we see the radicals engaging in. How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole?

    And so far as their prophet goes, the more I learn about him the less I could care how any abuse directed at him is received. Especially as he is described as the ‘perfect man’ or ‘perfect example.’ Perfectly deplorable is more like it.
    Muslims may not like such harsh appraisals, but what if it’s true? Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes pain can help lead the way to change, to a better way. Or it can also lead to more conflict and greater recrimination back and forth as EAgle would say too. But JW is not designed for moderate Muslims. Perhaps that’s a flaw but it does serve its purpose. The role of JW is to shine a bright light on the activities and atrocities commited by radical Muslims in the name of radical Islam, a.k.a Jihad.

    Yes things get nasty and over-simplified in the comments section there, but one must keep in mind what is causing all that hostility, i.e. Muslim Holy War itself. That’s the prime mover in all of this. That’s what it all comes back to. That’s what needs to be stopped in order for the reaction to stop.

    Where can moderate or liberal Muslims (if there is such a thing) go to make common cause with Non-muslims concerned about stopping jihad and supremacist Islam?
    I don’t know. Not JW, I’ll agree with you about that, at least if they venture into the comments section.

    Muslims are getting a bad name in the West these days, no doubt about it. Whose fault is that? JW?

    Anyway I’ll try to check back before the weekend is over to see what new, if anything, appears here. Maybe there are other forums too for people to discuss these issues?

    sincerely, alexon

  23. snatchmaker Says:

    eagle:

    “It was my attempt to show that hate is wrong no matter who is doing it.”

    Is it wrong to hate KKK members who rape and kill blacks?

    If not, then you too have limits to your policy of avoiding hate under all circumstances. You too have exceptions. So stop giving such a hard time to the people who for good reasons think Islam deserves to be hated.

  24. Eagle Says:

    alex,

    When talking about the Japanese I am referring to the US placing Japanese Americans in camps for no reason other than being Japanese.

    As far as Japanese soldiers, no doubt they were some of the most ruthless soldiers I think we as a nation have ever fought. You can find American GI’s today who still hold prejudice against the Japanese people because of what they experienced during the war.

    Personally I think we should teach our soldiers about those brutal battles. Islamist are not far removed from those Japanese soldiers of WW2. They too fight to the death and have no fear of it. It was amazing to me to see the film of those Japanese civilians jump to their death rather than being captured by the US, based solely on what they were told by Japan, what would happen to them if captured.

    Snatch,

    Hate the sin, love the sinners. It is what I try and live by.

  25. cerebate Says:

    Hello cerebate, you write:
    “I mean intentionally targeted, as policy.”
    Israel does what it does knowing fully well the civilians it will harm. It believes this is acceptable for the greater cause.

    “Again, I don’t think Muslim moderates are flocking to Jihad Watch for input on how to fend off the radicals.”
    No, but I believe that JW will be pointed out by the extremists in Islam as further examples of how the west hates muslims. Muslims may not comment much on JW , but some of them will have read a few articles and left with an impression of the west , especially people not staying in the west.If you have followed Lee Bollinger’s attack on the Iranian president, who do you think came out better? To an external audience Lee is one more case of a reputed western citizen inviting a muslim over and then insulting him publicly and crudely(And i truly dislike ahmedijinad and even then this is the impression I have). I would have liked to see the academics logically and rationally tear apart Ahmedjinads contentions instead Ahmedijinad gets what he wanted.

    “But if they read all the articles which are also posted there, along with Robert’s usually insightful comments, they might come to fully realize what all the hostility is about. ”
    First disagreement :), Robert is not insightful, he pushes through his agenda. Pointing to examples of violence and saying words to the effect see see islam is responsible,look look at this quranic quote is not ‘insightful’ in my opinion. I have seen Hindu – Muslim conflict and lived through the riots and it is with that experience that I say, it is naive to think Islam is solely responsible.

    Lets see – what insight did you get from reading only robert’s comments that you didnt get from reading the main article(last articles from robert on JW)?
    Misunderstander of Islam kills 30 on Kabul bus, Iran’s Parliament Signs Resolution to Label CIA, Army as ‘Terrorist Organizations’, Paging Mr. Orwell: New Taliban Constitution would ban “un-Islamic thought”, Afghan president offers Taliban a place in government for peace deal, US Army recovers bodies of tortured, murdered Sunni couple in Baghdad, New York City cabbies lose court battle over “anti-Muslim” GPS, Algeria: Jihadists kill 6 security force officers
    Will the 12th Imam cause war with Iran?

    “it would be shocking for a peaceful Muslim to happen upon Jihad Watch and see the hostility for Islam and Muslims which is on display there. But only if viewed in a vacuum. The full context has to be considered,”
    It is not shocking for them to see people to hate terrorists and violent jihadists. It is shocking for them to see the hostility towards all muslims and all Islam. It is shocking for them to see solutions like “ban all muslim immigration”.

    “Jihad Watch is a reaction to atrocities being committed all over the world by Muslims in the name of Allah and Islam and the Koran. Oh and there was a little thing now called 9-11. Before that there was no Jihad Watch (Americans were late to the party so we’re playing catch up). ”
    Aha but Islam has been around for 1000+ years. If 9-11 changed everything then the cause couldnt be Islam could it? Why have the radicals gotten so much more violent now? Islam is the same.. why didnt they attack non muslim america from the start?

    “A thougtful, caring Muslim should already be in shock about what is happening in Islam unless he/she has his/her head buried in the sand. Jihad Watch should only confirm the fact that the house of Islam is on fire and spreading that fire to everything it comes in contact with. Should it be surprising that those who are being set afire should react with anger, lashing back? ”
    An eye for an eye and another eye for another eye till everyone is blind … An example from Hindu muslims riots(this applies to both side, replace muslims by hindus). Moderate muslim’s on finding out that a Hindu mob had burnt their relatives or their friends will side with the muslims because the mob doesnt discriminate against whom it attacks. Just as people will always support their countries army, irrespective of whose at fault. The only way out of this is to make sure you only target the people who have to be targetted. As soon as you target any and all muslims, they wont support you no matter what views they held.

    “And more to the point; Supremacist Islam also does not exist in a vacuum. It comes from somewhere. Robert Spencer isn’t making up those verses which preach the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of all others. And the exhortations to violence which accompany those verses.”
    No he isnt. But he does try to manipulate the verses to suit his purpose. Numerous people have given counter verses – They are met with a single term abrogation. Some muslims do come forth and say they dont believe or commit any violent acts – They are met with two words “bad muslim”. JW is countered with verses from the old testament – met with oh this doesnt help us understand jihad. and so on.It serves no purpose and no solution will be available.

    “And so far as their prophet goes, the more I learn about him the less I could care how any abuse directed at him is received. Especially as he is described as the ‘perfect man’ or ‘perfect example.’ Perfectly deplorable is more like it.”
    As an interesting experiment judge your ancestor’s of just 200 years back with the morality codes of today and tell me your conclusion. In hinduism too there is this Ideal man who threw out his wife because of a rumor spread by a washerman. You and i can shake our head and say ideal man indeed. Its quite different however to say mass murderer , war mongerer, paedophile dont you think?

    “The role of JW is to shine a bright light on the activities and atrocities commited by radical Muslims in the name of radical Islam, a.k.a Jihad. ”
    It specifically tries to point out that islam (and the quranic verses and no radical here) are responsible for the atrocities committed by radical muslims.Quite different.

    “but one must keep in mind what is causing all that hostility, i.e. Muslim Holy War itself. That’s the prime mover in all of this. That’s what it all comes back to. That’s what needs to be stopped in order for the reaction to stop. ”
    Nah they’d just find a new race/religion to hate.Probably the stinkin’ indians or chinese or mexicans who steal their jobs.

    “Muslims are getting a bad name in the West these days, no doubt about it. Whose fault is that? JW? ”
    Nope theirs , for not doing anything effective about the extremists who speak for them. JW’s fault is that it has effectively spread a lot of hatred in the name of shining a light.

    Offtopic
    “Elements of Islam definitely do inspire and advocate the kind of violence we see the radicals engaging in. How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole?”
    I love a catholic woman. Her parents are against the marriage because I am not catholic. They have been taught that Marriage is a sacrament only if it between two catholics. Hence her marriage with me would only be a ‘contract’. They believe idolatory is a sin and I (who actually doesnt follow any religion) am a sinner because I am born a hindu and worship idols and demons. They believe i am doomed to hell because I dont believe in the divinity of christ. They believe i am the devil (or one of his minions) sent to tempt their good roman catholic daughter. A priest too has tried to impress my fiancee with these views, and if i look closely at the bible or the views of the catholic church it does indeed say , im going to hell(because of my views). Does this reflect on christianity (or roman catholicism to be precise?) and more importantly does it reflect on catholics? Should it?
    Hint : when i told my catholic school friend these events , he said, wow your in laws to be, are really bigoted, man.

  26. cerebate Says:

    Alexon
    Posting separately because this is a key issue

    “Where can moderate or liberal Muslims (if there is such a thing) go to make common cause with Non-muslims concerned about stopping jihad and supremacist Islam?”
    I dont know either. And perhaps that is the first problem we need to solve.

    The times that i have seen problems in my country were when people were segregated. When we had a muslim colony and a hindu colony and so on.
    Religion problems were noticably absent when people stayed in the same locality and mingled.

  27. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate wrote about JW and Spencer:

    “The only people who can stop the extremism are the moderate muslims. And this for me is a significant difference between Eagles blog and Jihadwatch. Jihadwatch promotes an us v/s them conflict which is doomed to heavy loss…”

    JW only by inference — based upon subjective impression — promotes an Us vs. Them conflict. If you simply read Spencer’s words both in his site description and in his various commentaries, as well as in his responses during round-table dialogues with Muslim apologists, he is patently not doing any such thing with his site. His main overall mission is simple, bifurcated into two points:

    1) to point out all the atrocities and injustices perpetrated by Muslims who themselves frame their actions in the name of Islam with reference to their founding texts (Qur’an and Sunna and for the Shi’ites their alternative sources for the Sunna) and tradition

    and

    2) to argue that if reformist Muslims want to do something about this both effectively for the reform of their obviously dysfunctional religious culture, and to the satisfaction of us non-Muslims, then they must confront the substantial grounding in the texts and traditions of Islam which their fellow violent and unjust Muslims indeed can point to.

    Spencer has repeated ad nauseam over the years the simple maxim: “You can’t reform something if you don’t face and admit to what needs reforming.” And what needs reforming with the pathology afflicting Islam is the solid grounding in mainstream Islamic texts and tradition which terrorism and abuses of human rights.

    And cerebrate’s responses to alexon demonstrate a sadly all-too typical tendency among critics of Spencer — to wit, imputing to him sentiments and/or statements he has never expressed: “it is naive to think Islam is solely responsible.” I would ask cerebrate to prove that Spencer has ever said this in any way, shape or form. There is a difference between some cause being “solely responsible” for its effects, and being the more important cause among many causative factors involved in these effects. And even if one conceded that Islam is not the “more important” cause among many causes, but merely conceded that it is one important cause among many important causes, does that let Islam off the hook for being ONE of the causes?

    alexon, hi I used to post on Jihad Watch but I had a kind of “falling out” with Spencer and got banned. I don’t care, though: the importance of the mission is more important than Spencer’s all-too human personal flaws.

  28. snatchmaker Says:

    Minor correction to my previous post:

    “And what needs reforming with the pathology afflicting Islam is the solid grounding in mainstream Islamic texts and tradition which terrorism and abuses of human rights.”

    Should read:

    “And what needs reforming with the pathology afflicting Islam is the solid grounding in mainstream Islamic texts and tradition which terrorism and abuses of human rights enjoys.”

  29. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate:

    Just now, Spencer posted these comments about a story concerning “radicalization” of Islamic movements on the island state of Maldives in the Indian Ocean. These comments enunciate, for the umpteenth time, Spencer’s point about the fine line between “radical Islam” and Islam itself.

    First, Spencer quotes the news account:

    “The government [of Maldives] has taken a hard line against radical Islam.”

    “President Gayoom is Asia’s longest-serving leader and has been in charge of the Maldives since 1978. Educated in Islamic jurisprudence in Egypt, he has run the country as a one-party state with a legal system based on Sharia law.”

    Then Spencer comments, wryly as usual:

    “Was this a slip of the tongue? The implication here is that “radical Islam” — which the government is resisting — and Sharia — which the government is based on — are somehow at opposite ends of the spectrum. Both statements are, of course, wrong. “Radicalism,” i.e., violence, and Sharia are both entirely within the mainstream of Islam.”

    This is one of the major points Spencer keeps repeating over and over again on his site, a point that needs to be faced by Muslim reformists if they ever want to seriously reform Islam and bring it into the modern era of human rights and the indefinite moratorium on imperial conquest which the West (in alliance with most nation-states around the world) in modern times has decided to impose on the world which only Communists, Fascists, Nazis and now certain Islamists have tried to revive. Serious Muslim reformers will never be able to reform Islam if they don’t face the fact that it has major elements based in the heart of Islam that need reforming. And people such as eagle and cerebrate seem — in their anxious sincerity — to be only aiding and abetting this woolpulling over the eyes and sweeping under the rug of the very things about Islam that have to be faced in order for them to be reformed.

  30. alexonhere Says:

    Note from alexon: I’m not feeling well this weekend. Won’t be able to post anything of substance until I improve. 😦

  31. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    “he is patently not doing any such thing with his site.”
    I wonder why the comments are so vitriolic then? Not robert’s fault to be sure, but writing books explicitly titled as Why christianity is a religion of peace and Islam isn’t, do show his point of view.

    “1) to point out all the atrocities and injustices perpetrated by Muslims who themselves frame their actions in the name of Islam with reference to their founding texts ”
    Which is extremely naive. I have seen atrocities committed by muslims against non muslim’s, who have also used the Quran to justify their action, but there has also been something else to gain – power, money, revenge. It also does not explain atrocities committed by muslims against other muslims. Being satisified with an explanation of the form “their obviously dysfunctional religious culture” is misguided in my opinion.

    2)”then they must confront the substantial grounding in the texts and traditions of Islam which their fellow violent and unjust Muslims indeed can point to…”
    And see here’s the thing. How do you suppose the reformist muslims go about doing this? Change the text? Have alternate interpretations of the text? And why would the radicals listen or change what they are doing today?

    “I would ask cerebrate to prove that Spencer has ever said this in any way, shape or form”
    He hasnt, it is my conclusion based on his writings and interviews. He keeps saying he does it to encourage dialogue, but i haven’t seen anything close to dialogue yet.
    It is also based on what the people who agree with spencer comments. There have also been examples on youtube pointing out spencer’s manipulations.

    Here is a direct yes /no question for you.
    In your opinion is the central point of Robert’s writings that The teachings of the Quran/ The Activities of mohammed are the major/most important cause for the atrocities committed by muslims?

    “does that let Islam off the hook for being ONE of the causes?”
    Kind of like convicting a gun for a murder. However i will accept this if you treat all religions fairly, i.e.if you believe that for any atrocity committed in the name of religion , the religion is one of the (perhaps major) causes and is responsible for the atrocity and needs reform, then i accept your contention(I dont agree with it but i accept the consistency).

  32. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    so a predominantly muslim country is trying to address the violent elements within it, and the conclusion is
    ““Radicalism,” i.e., violence, and Sharia are both entirely within the mainstream of Islam.”?
    Im sure the above seems logical to you, but its a non sequitur to me. Why did it happen only now instead of being the case ever since the country was under Sharia?

    You bring up reform again. And I ask you again,
    a) Reform By whom?
    b) How?

    “..aiding and abetting this woolpulling over the eyes and sweeping under the rug of the very things about Islam that have to be faced in order for them to be reformed.”
    See here’s the thing some muslim’s believe jihad is the struggle within yourself to make you a better person. Some believe jihad is the struggle against the non islamic world using any means at hand.
    You believe that the latter is the only true interpretation and telling the former his religion is dysfunctional and needs reform hence turning him away from you as well.

    I believe that we have to work with the former and make him convince the radicals they are wrong.
    Time will tell which was the better approach.

  33. cerebate Says:

    alexonhere Says:
    “Won’t be able to post anything of substance until I improve. ”
    🙂

  34. snatchmaker Says:

    (Sorry, my post above that mentioned the story of the Maldives was incorrect on one point: it was not Robert Spencer who wrote those comments, but one of his JW writers. I’d argue that this is a minor point and doesn’t affect my main point, since the JW writer in question (“Greg”) is an official representative of Spencer’s for JW. Also, I have been reading JW for almost two years now, and I have gotten to know Spencer’s style well — the fact that I assumed it was Spencer shows that it does not deviate from his viewpoints. The writer, “Greg”, evidently shares Spencer’s view of the subject closely, and has also picked up a little of Spencer’s wry style of writing.)

  35. alexonhere Says:

    cerebate quotes alexonhere saying:
    “Won’t be able to post anything of substance until I improve. ”

    cerebate grins.

    Hey cerebate, what’s the grinning over? You think I made that up? Are you thinking your comeback was so overwhelming that I couldn’t take the heat and sought a way out? That’s either arrogant or poor sportsmanship (or maybe both). I am feeling better tonight but still not great (not that you care).

    alexon: “Again, I don’t think Muslim moderates are flocking to Jihad Watch for input on how to fend off the radicals.”

    cerebate: “No, but I believe that JW will be pointed out by the extremists in Islam as further examples of how the west hates muslims.”

    Jihadist propaganda has no need for JW. Why bother when you have the Koran, Muhammad’s violent example, and any number of other sources (Hadith etc.) which drive home the same points (essentially; Muslim good, Other bad).

    “Muslims may not comment much on JW , but some of them will have read a few articles and left with an impression of the west , especially people not staying in the west.”

    So Muslims not staying in the west read a few articles on JW and leave with a bad impression??
    Just teasing. See, I can play the smartass stuff too and call out a sloppy sentence and make fun of it. That’s not my style but a sarcastic grin begets a gotcha grin begets a whatever’s next grin if that’s how it’s going to go.

    Actually, that’s good that they come to JW to read a few articles. Then they’ll better understand exactly what a growing number of Non-muslims in the West are up-in-arms over. Of course they should already know that.

    cerebate: “If you have followed Lee Bollinger’s attack on the Iranian president, who do you think came out better?
    To an external audience Lee is one more case of a reputed western citizen inviting a muslim over and then insulting him publicly and crudely(And i truly dislike ahmedijinad and even then this is the impression I have). I would have liked to see the academics logically and rationally tear apart Ahmedjinads contentions instead Ahmedijinad gets what he wanted.”

    Are you sure that it was Bollinger who extended the invitation? I thought the invitation was extended by Columbia’s Center for International Studies (or whatever the exact name is has). Bollinger, as President, certainly had the right to speak his mind and did so. Was it a hostile introduction? Yes. Ahmedin-jihad doesn’t get a good tongue-lashing like that very often I’m sure. You’re too concerned about how such things play in the Islamic world. That’s the power of propaganda. Islamic media (like al-Jazeera) can (and do) make whatever they want of any event. So the president of Iran is scolded by an American university president. Big deal. Welcome to America. What
    Ahmedin-jihad really wants are nuke bombs. By the way, do you remember when President Bush was to meet with Nouri al-Maliki (sp?) in Jordan and the new Iraqi President kept Bush waiting for an entire day without notice or explanation until he (Maliki) showed up? Remember how the Islamic world media reacted to that humiliating snub? They Rejoiced! Oh how they rejoiced.

    alexon is quoted: “But if they read all the articles which are also posted there, along with Robert’s usually insightful comments, they might come to fully realize what all the hostility is about. ”

    cerebate replies: “First disagreement :), Robert is not insightful, he pushes through his agenda. Pointing to examples of violence and saying words to the effect see see islam is responsible,look look at this quranic quote is not ‘insightful’ in my opinion. I have seen Hindu – Muslim conflict and lived through the riots and it is with that experience that I say, it is naive to think Islam is solely responsible.”

    Ok, “insightful” was probably the wrong word. Robert hammers home the same points over and over again but they’re critical to the whole mission (resistance to jihad and Islamic supremacy) and exactly on target. People say “Islam is a Religion of Peace” and Robert blows that out of the water day after day after day. People say “It’s just a tiny minority of violent extremists” and Robert blows that out of the water day after day after day. Ad Nauseum. The same lame excuses keep getting trotted out for the epidemic of violence committed in Allah’s name so Robert is obligated to keep hammering home the same counter points. It’s like an undending game of Whack-a-Mole but of course it’s no game.

    cerebate: “Lets see – what insight did you get from reading only robert’s comments that you didnt get from reading the main article(last articles from robert on JW)?
    Misunderstander of Islam kills 30 on Kabul bus…”

    Actually, that’s the perfect example of what I just finished describing. People keep saying that Islam is simply “misunderstood” by those who commit violence in it’s name.
    So every time Robert hammers home this point by captioning “Musunderstander of Islam kills 30” or whatever the atrocity du jour is. It’s not subtle but it’s very effective. Subtlety only goes so far when dealing with murdering fanatics.

  36. alexonhere Says:

    alexon is quoted saying: “Jihad Watch is a reaction to atrocities being committed all over the world by Muslims in the name of Allah and Islam and the Koran. Oh and there was a little thing now called 9-11. Before that there was no Jihad Watch (Americans were late to the party so we’re playing catch up). ”

    cerebate replies: “Aha but Islam has been around for 1000+ years. If 9-11 changed everything then the cause couldnt be Islam could it?

    Are you serious?? 😀 Islam has been around for 1300 or so years but America has only been around for about 230. Since America was settled by Christian Europeans, there was virtually no contact between Americans and Muslims for almost 200 years. So 9-11 “changed everything” for most Americans, even though there had been attacks throughout the 1990s by al-Qaeda on American targets overseas. 9-11 was the first *successful* large scale attack within America. There was a previous attack on the WTC which failed. But interestingly, it wasn’t Buddhists behind the attack, nor Animists (which, if poverty causes terrorism you would think it would be one of those two, right?), nor Hindus, nor Zoroastrians. No, it was Muslims. And Muslims are behind most all the rest of the terrorism in the world today as well, right? Now why is that?

    cerebate continues: “Why have the radicals gotten so much more violent now? Islam is the same.. why didnt they attack non muslim america from the start?”

    Answer: Because they couldn’t. And they stopped attacking Europe because they were defeated and driven off.

    Alexon is quoted saying: “A thougtful, caring Muslim should already be in shock about what is happening in Islam unless he/she has his/her head buried in the sand. Jihad Watch should only confirm the fact that the house of Islam is on fire and spreading that fire to everything it comes in contact with. Should it be surprising that those who are being set afire should react with anger, lashing back? ”

    to which cerebate replies: “An eye for an eye and another eye for another eye till everyone is blind”

    No, it’s called self-defense and self-preservation. Your reply suggests moral equivalence between an attacker and a victim. There is no such equivalence. It’s more than clear who the aggressors are in today’s clash between supremacist Muslims and those they want to eradicate (polytheists and Unbelievers) or subdue (People of the Book).

    As one of self-described Hindu beginning I am surprised and disappointed that you cannot also see how Islam lashed upon India in waves of aggression to plunder, subjugate, convert, enslave, or kill the native inhabitants there. For centuries this went on, this virtual holocaust, wiping out so many millions of Hindus and Buddhists. It’s only because some of your worthier ancestors had the backbone to stand up and resist that you could even know Hinduism at all. As a Polytheistic faith it is one which Islam holds particular enmity towards. No “people of the book” thorough subjugation Dhimmitude status option for your people.
    MILLIONS of Hindus and Buddhists, in their own homeland, were slaughtered over those centuries, by invading jihad-mongering Muslims.

  37. alexonhere Says:

    Alexon says: “And more to the point; Supremacist Islam also does not exist in a vacuum. It comes from somewhere. Robert Spencer isn’t making up those verses which preach the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of all others. And the exhortations to violence which accompany those verses.”

    Well said Alexon! 🙂

    cerebate replies:
    “No he isnt. But he does try to manipulate the verses to suit his purpose.”

    No, he shows how the verses are used by Muslim war-mongers to justify aggression against Non-muslims.

    “Numerous people have given counter verses – They are met with a single term abrogation.”

    And that’s how the counter verses are defeated by the jihadists too. Quite effectively so.

    Alexon is quoted as saying: “but one must keep in mind what is causing all that hostility, i.e. Muslim Holy War itself. That’s the prime mover in all of this. That’s what it all comes back to. That’s what needs to be stopped in order for the reaction to stop. ”

    Again, well said alexon! 😉

    To which cerebate replies: “Nah they’d just find a new race/religion to hate. Probably the stinkin’ indians or chinese or mexicans who steal their jobs.”

    Oh my, you’re really throwing in the towel now aren’t you?

    Yes there are some bigots on JW. I’ve attacked a few of them myself. Anyone can post there. People can log on and spew all the junk they want to in the comments section. It’s barely moderated. There is substance and there is schlock. You choose to take on the schlock; A hollow victory at best.

  38. alexonhere Says:

    Alexon says: “And so far as their prophet goes, the more I learn about him the less I could care how any abuse directed at him is received. Especially as he is described as the ‘perfect man’ or ‘perfect example.’ Perfectly deplorable is more like it.”

    cerebate replies:
    “As an interesting experiment judge your ancestor’s of just 200 years back with the morality codes of today and tell me your conclusion. In hinduism too there is this Ideal man who threw out his wife because of a rumor spread by a washerman. You and i can shake our head and say ideal man indeed. Its quite different however to say mass murderer , war mongerer, paedophile dont you think?”

    If the show fits… wear it. My ancestors didn’t behead people or order other people to be assassinated over a mocking poem. Nor did they take on child brides and rape them. Muhammad did become a war-monger, no?

    Alexon wrote: “Muslims are getting a bad name in the West these days, no doubt about it. Whose fault is that? JW? ”

    cerebate replies: “Nope theirs , for not doing anything effective about the extremists who speak for them. ”

    Ah! finally, a point of agreement! Hooray!

    “JW’s fault is that it has effectively spread a lot of hatred in the name of shining a light.”

    No, not really. Yes the comments section is problematic. There are haters there (albeit not without cause) but there are also quality posts and posters whom you ignore. You might consider supporting the moderate voices in order to diminish the more extreme voices (just as you counsel doing with Islam).

  39. alexonhere Says:

    And finally, Alexon said:

    “Elements of Islam definitely do inspire and advocate the kind of violence we see the radicals engaging in. How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole?”

    Another Good Point Alexon! 😉

    To which cerebate didn’t reply directly but rather with a personal story.
    I actually appreciated your story and will not try to mock or score points over it. You conclude with:

    “…if i look closely at the bible or the views of the catholic church it does indeed say , im going to hell(because of my views). Does this reflect on christianity (or roman catholicism to be precise?) and more importantly does it reflect on catholics? Should it?

    First of all, I too belong to no religion. I was not raised with any religion (grandparents were Christian but neither parent was religious) and I’m fine with that. But unlike a lot of atheists (I really don’t consider myself an “atheist” but technically I suppose I am) I don’t have “issues” with religion in general. I’m a live and let live kind of guy. Sounds like you are too, no?

    This explains why I have a MAJOR issue with Islam. Islam is NOT a live and let live religion; It’s a LIVE OUR WAY OR ELSE! religion, at least in the Koran, and for large numbers of its most fervent followers who are more than happy to make war on “the other” to please their Allah and spread his Dominion over the entire world.

    Ok, now on to your concluding point: You Are Right! I’m no expert on the Bible but I’m pretty sure it does say that one is destined to hell if they don’t repent of false (or no) belief, nor follow the righteous path. And yes, this does reflect poorly on this aspect of Christianity.

    However… The difference between this and Islam is that Christians are not instructed to take it upon themselves to make these life and death decisions for others. God makes the final judgments, NOT man. And there aren’t the open-ended exhortations in the Bible to kill non-believers (polytheists etc) wherever they are found, as are found repeatedly in the Koran.

    It’s a HUGE distinction. The threat of damnation and hell-fire is unpleasant coming from fanatical Christians (though in all my years I’ve never once been personally threatened in this way). But this same threat of hell is downright deadly from fanatical Muslims who view it as a religious obligation to take you there themselves, as personal escorts if need be (in the form of murder-suicide bombings), until all the world is won for Allah. Of course I’m describing the most extreme, literal commitment which is not followed by most Muslims because it is so extreme and difficult. But Muslims are repeatedly taught that everything in the Koran is the literal word of Allah and therefore cannot be questioned or doubted at all. This doesn’t help any efforts to reform.

    Which all comes back to the basic truth that although there are moderate Muslims (YES, Millions of them!), Islam itself is NOT moderate. It’s an extreme, rigid, unyielding faith, which leads many thousands of its most committed followers to commit unspeakable violence in its name.

  40. snatchmaker Says:

    Just doing a little cherrypicking for now:

    alexon wrote: “Yes there are some bigots on JW… Anyone can post there. People can log on and spew all the junk they want to in the comments section. It’s barely moderated. There is substance and there is schlock. You [cerebrate] choose to take on the schlock; A hollow victory at best.”

    With regard to cerebrate’s criticism of the general ambiance of JW, which seems to me to heavily inform his generalized criticism of JW and Spencer, cerebrate is doing exactly what he blames Spencer of doing with the bad elements of the Koran & Islam — focusing on the bad things and trying “to manipulate them to suit his purpose.” In this case, cerebrates purpose seems to be to undercut and undermine any substantive criticism of Islam.

  41. snatchmaker Says:

    Test:

    this is in bold

    this is in italics

  42. in2thefray Says:

    “Jihadist propaganda has no need for JW…” No but sites like it as well as MSM stories are actually the favored tool for the extremists. Think Abu Ghirab.
    “…I’m pretty sure it does say that one is destined to hell if they don’t repent of false (or no) belief, nor follow the righteous path. And yes, this does reflect poorly on this aspect of Christianity.”
    The Bible actually covers sin and salvation throughout and much like other religions needs a full understanding to either be followed or abused.

  43. cerebate Says:

    Hey cerebate, what’s the grinning over? You think I made that up?
    Nah an attempt an humor. Nothing more nothing less. If it came across differently i apologise.

    “Jihadist propaganda has no need for JW. . which drive home the same points (essentially; Muslim good, Other bad). ”
    Umm no, i have seen examples of clerics who utilise what some christian fundamentalists say as proof that they are being targetted and that the ‘entire’ west hates them and use it to spread hate. For that matter i see more examples of the fundamentalists being able to incite violence using examples of violence/discrimination against muslims (e.g. Israel) rather than resorting to ‘the quran says so’. Now as non muslim’s we may not be able to reform Islam from the outside, but we sure as heck can do something about giving these guys less ammunition to use.

    Every religion always states itself good, others bad. The problem is when people interpret that as i must either kill these other’s or subjugate them.

    “What Ahmedin-jihad really wants are nuke bombs”
    Juries out on this one. After Iraq i supposed we’d have learnt something about making accusations without definite proof.

    “It’s just a tiny minority of violent extremists” and Robert blows that out of the water day after day after day.
    Nope . in your opinion what percentage would you consider minority?. Do extremists who are politically motivated count(and how would we know for sure). ? As to the religion of peace no it isnt(i wonder which religion can make that claim). Its kind of like making the claim that humanity is a bunch of violent savages and putting out an article every time a murder is committed.

  44. cerebate Says:

    “Misunderstander of Islam kills 30 on Kabul bus…”
    Im curious who the 30 passenger’s on the bus were? And if they were some muslim’s which Quranic verse supports killing other muslims? It seems to have been a politically motivated civil war attack. How is Robert being in any way useful here? Only the taliban say they represent islam , no one else. Do they misunderstand Islam- i dont know. But did they carry out this attack or Islam or as a set of actions to regain power? Which Quranic verse supports growing opium which was the source of a lot of the Taliban’s finances? This is what I dont like about Robert, he uses his interpretation and pretends it’s the only one possible.

  45. cerebate Says:

    “As one of self-described Hindu beginning I am surprised and disappointed that you cannot also see how Islam lashed upon India in waves of aggression to plunder, subjugate, convert, enslave, or kill the native inhabitants there”
    Heh , it is precisely because of my hindu beginning that I can have the views I have. I have never disputed that mughal emperor’s subjugated/converted/enslaved/taxed the natives (Aurangzeb for e.g.) .
    And guess what so did Christian British/Portuguese and French.
    And you know whats worse? so did the native kings. If i say Islam is the reason for what the mughals/persians did then should i conclude that Christianity and Hinduism is the reason for the others. if not what are the reasons there and why can they not apply to Islam?

    You see when I grew up , in the place I stayed we had 2 south indians hindus, 1 catholic, 1 north Indian hindu, 3 muslim families, 1 Jain, and across the street a couple of Sikh families. Do you know what the disputes were over? Throwing trash, Distribution of water etc. I have played cricket with the muslim youth of my age. They went to the mosque, they prayed, distributed kheer at ramzan, accepted the hindu diwali sweet’s and sent their children to accept sweets from santa claus at christmas. If you read JW you’d never believe this , after all these can only be bad muslims, or people who dont follow the Quran right?
    Is it possible that people interpret the Quran as they want and follow what they want instead of there being the one true interpretation as some would have us believe?

    I have seen how the muslims in my building reacted when there were Hindu Muslim riots. I have seen the propaganda spread by extremists from both sides. I have seen the people exploited for political purposes. I have seen the people screwed by the leaders who say they represent the people. And i can go on. But you wont see this on JW either right?

    You rely on news articles that someone aggregates. I base my views on the people I have interacted with or seen with my eyes.

    “Your reply suggests moral equivalence between an attacker and a victim.”
    Nah there is a clear distinction and i make that. What America did in Iraq was clearly not as a victim. What Israel sometimes does is clearly not as a victim (and i omit the Islamic examples because you are already aware of them). If america manages to kill Osama then yep that’s america reacting as a victim.

  46. cerebate Says:

    “And Muslims are behind most all the rest of the terrorism in the world today as well, right?”
    Unless you have a clear definition of terrorism , I do not accept this (e.g. I consider what is happening in burma terrorism albeit by the state)

  47. cerebate Says:

    yeesh I hope alexon you arent praising yourself. Can people who want to debate use a distinct nickname?

    “There is substance and there is schlock. You choose to take on the schlock”
    Robert spencer is schlock?
    Anyway if you followed one thread where Robert end’s his story in the book as Mohammed said we will mutilate them in turn , defends it by saying he added a footnote saying Mohammed was convinced not to mutilate but muslims do it anyway and the actual story is Mohammed says we will mutilate , god tell’s him not to, mohammed sees the error of his ways and forbids anyone to mutilate, is quite beautifully illustrative of how Robert works. Note he can still claim “I have always spoken the truth!”

    Again note that it is self evident that some muslims are terrorists and that they have carried out horrific acts. I for one do not need Robert to point them out, I do have an RSS aggregator. I also find that the causes are much more complex than just islam or a few quranic verses.

  48. cerebate Says:

    “My ancestors didn’t behead people or order other people to be assassinated over a mocking poem. Nor did they take on child brides and rape them”
    Im curious which race/country are your ancestors from? You aren’t american , i take it?
    Child marriage is a horrific practice. But as close as 50 years ago it was still present in my country(and still there in some parts). I suppose I’d have to go back 200-300 years to find examples in the western world. Slavery? Treatment of Native americans?
    This isn’t moral equivalence , just that humanity has savage beginning’s. Its curious how Alexander is called the Great and not a war mongerer isn’t it? How no such tarring is done to Moses because his people were persecuted?

    I concede that if you want to claim to be a perfect human you can’t have these incidents in your background. But to paint someone who lived 1000+ years ago as war mongerer without understanding the society of that time or the circumstances is silly.

  49. cerebate Says:

    You might consider supporting the moderate voices in order to diminish the more extreme voices (just as you counsel doing with Islam).

    Isnt that what we are doing 🙂 ? Unfortunately i do not see many examples of ‘moderates’ as JW commenters.
    Point them out to me please and I’ll check their comments and I’ll decide for myself.(Ill agree that the alexon from JW is reasonable enough that I can agree to disagree without too much acrimony)

  50. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    When i say JW – It mean’s in its entirety so i do include the comments and further I use the comments to point out that this is the kind of viewership that Robert’s articles will attract. Not Robert’s fault but makes JW not much practical use either. I assume that JW will be successful if it can get more moderates and more muslim’s to discuss issue’s and solutions as opposed to trade insults or verses. I do not see that happening anytime soon.

    “he blames Spencer of doing with the bad elements of the Koran & Islam — focusing on the bad things and trying “to manipulate them to suit his purpose.”
    Not quite. My major points with respect to spencer are
    a. He did try to manipulate. Not good , you have to be objective
    b. That saying the Islamic religion is the cause of the problems doesn’t quite explain a lot of the occurences and is naive and simplistic (at best, assuming no ulterior motives)
    c. That even if Islam is a major cause there is no way to reform the Quran or the verse, since these wont be accepted by the jihadist and they’ll continue what they do today i.e. try to brainwash people into buying into their interpretation.
    d. That JW as a site will turn of most muslims and hence any chance of arriving at a solution.
    e. That spencer could be a lot more effective if he gave up trying to appeal to the extremes. Alternately he can inject humor and make a good deal of money like Michael Moore .

    “undermine any substantive criticism of Islam.”
    Heh , please go ahead, I have no like of Islam. The point i disagree with is how much of a factor Islam is when it comes to the violent acts committed in its name.

    You can read about a muslim journalists investigative reporting(Black Friday) into the Bombay Bomb blasts perpetrated by a Muslim to understand
    a. How inspite of being objective you can convey horror, the problems in (Islamic) religion and society in general
    b. The various factors that come into play in a religious conflict.
    I don’t much like Spencer’s writing because I have seen far more effective and useful articles against Islamic terrorism.

  51. cerebate Says:

    “This explains why I have a MAJOR issue with Islam. Islam is NOT a live and let live religion; It’s a LIVE OUR WAY OR ELSE”
    Perhaps it is I dont know for sure. However most muslim’s i know do not think this way , nor do they do anything to implement the above. Yes there are some counter example’s but as a percentage?.. heck it would be rounded off (im a programmer analyst) to zero.
    And i did give a personal example in this case too.
    Perhaps I would think differently if i was a Hindu born in Pakistan. But see here’s the thing, I have a low opinion of (other) religious life in Pakistan not because of anything I have seen and experienced, but because of what the Indian media has brainwashed me into believing. The Indian media is quite quick to point out examples of strife in pakistan with the implied “India is better of”. Uniformly we are told about how Pakistan incited all the wars, How the brave Indian soldiers, repelled them. How pakistan and the ISI is responsible for every single kashmiri terrorist
    Find any parallels ?
    The irony that Pakistan is a close ally of the USA is never lost on most of us Indians.
    And sometimes I wonder, what all am I not being told. I can read salahuddin’s blog and read about his liberal parents and think, hmm I never did read that such people existed in Pakistan. what else am I not being told. Do the pakistani’s believe the same of us indians?

    Its would really be quite simple to conclude that all india -pakistan problems are because of ta dah Islam!

    Yep in matter’s of religion Im live and let live too.I wish they were more like us :). After having a classmate who prayed to all, Mother Mary, Allah and Krishna before any school exam , I couldnt be anything else.(needless to say he actually did very well in said exams)

    Offtopic
    eagle : sorry for spamming :), but im off to cook now so you’ll probably get to see comments by other folks!.
    Im on EST , i wonder how these guys can comment during the day? , Im stuck behind java problems

  52. Eagle Says:

    cerebate,

    No worries 😀

  53. Stefan Says:

    “i do not see many examples of ‘moderates’ as JW commenters.
    Point them out to me please and I’ll check their comments and I’ll decide for myself.”

    http://free-minds.org/forum/

    enjoy 🙂

  54. Eagle Says:

    Thanks for the link Stefan 😀

  55. cerebate Says:

    Stefan
    Hmm? Ill go through this site , but I meant examples of people posting rationally at JW.

  56. snatchmaker Says:

    Hi Stefan, and this is also a question for eagle and cerebrate:

    Do you approve of the organization at this link? —

    http://www.reformislam.org/

    Any caveats, disagreements?

  57. awake Says:

    snatchmaker,

    No Muslim will support that site. First, it refers to some apostates as prominent “moderate” Muslims. Second, it actually mirrors what Spencer talks about at JW, acknowledging aspects of Islam that need reforming in an attempt to solve the current situation we find ourselves in. There will be none of that amongst “moderates”.

    The best you will get here is tacit admission that Islamism rather than Islam is the problem, like M. Zuhdi Jasser states. Eagle is a professed Christian and salahudin an Islamic apostate, now agnostic atheist. Cerebate, well he never cares to identify himself at all. It is all part of his mystique.

    His argument about Spencer and the practice of mutilation by Muhammad was put forth by him on JW. He bases his whole argument on the fact that a specific footnote was missing from the hardcover edition of his book, which was corrected in the paperback version. Erroneous publishing mistake. He preferes to write off the entire JW commentating comunity as unreasonable for that is easier than actually addressing the topics head on.

    Of course, he never actually corrects anything that Robert has said.

  58. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate (your comments in italics):

    I wonder why the comments [on JW] are so vitriolic then? Not robert’s fault to be sure, but writing books explicitly titled as Why christianity is a religion of peace and Islam isn’t, do show his point of view.

    Spencer’s “point of view” is also a structure of arguments composed of data and articulated interpretations of those data. To counter Spencer’s “point of view” on the level of “viewpoints” alone is easy, and only requires airy and imprecise pot-shots; to counter his structure of arguments on their level, however, is considerably more difficult and requires actually reading him, addressing his data, and refuting his arguments with counter-arguments. I haven’t really seen the latter from you, except here and there in embryonic form.

    “1) to point out all the atrocities and injustices perpetrated by Muslims who themselves frame their actions in the name of Islam with reference to their founding texts ”
    Which is extremely naive. I have seen atrocities committed by muslims against non muslim’s, who have also used the Quran to justify their action, but there has also been something else to gain – power, money, revenge.

    Nevertheless, the Islamic motivation — theocratic, trans-national and imperialist/supremacist — lifts this category of all-too common criminality to a different level, and makes it more geopolitically dangerous and unstable. Furthermore, there are good indications that the other more basic motives you cite (power, money and revenge) are instrumental to (but not more important than) the higher cause in the jihadist mind — to “fight them [the kaffirs] until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world].” (The preceding is the translation of Koran 8:39 by two Muslims, Hilali and Khan: they themselves put in the brackets the explanatory phrase “in the whole of the world”.)

    It [i.e., reference to their founding texts and traditions] also does not explain atrocities committed by muslims against other muslims.

    Actually, it does. In a nutshell, the Islamic reason Muslims kill anybody is based centrally (though not solely) on the target being non-Muslim. The vast majority of the Muslim-on-Muslim violence involves the process of “de-Muslimizing” the victim first, in order to make him legitimate to kill. This “de-Muslimification” process involves a kind of theological slander, essentially trying to prove (not always factually of course) that the intended victim, an ostensible Muslim, has betrayed his Islam in one way or another. The process need not be elaborate or sophisticated. It can sometimes merely be the consequence of some imam or sheikh or political or military or guerilla leader simply branding an individual or group as not “true Muslims”, and – to the extent that the charge is believed, and to the extent that these newly branded “false Muslims” are, through their falsehood (or simply their passive collusion with the “enemy” du jour), spreading “fitna” in the land – they can whip up what Muslim-on-Muslim violence. (This of course is much easier to whip up for Sunnis when the target is Shia, and vice versa, since they have an inveterate tradition of this kind of mutual accusation of the other not being a “true Muslim” and of trying to foment “fitna in the land”.) This reaches grotesquely ridiculous proportions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, where Muslims have killed Muslim barbers for giving the “wrong” kind of haircuts and beard trimmings.
    Secondly, Muslims kill other Muslims as “collateral damage” in the crossfire of the primary target. Osama bin Laden, when asked by a journalist about the high probability that Muslims were killed in one of his (pre-911) embassy attacks, said calmly that he was doing them a favor, for they were assured Paradise by dying as a consequence of his attack.

    Being satisified with an explanation of the form “their obviously dysfunctional religious culture” is misguided in my opinion.

    I would say that the obsession – too often murderous — with Muslims not being “Muslim enough” counts as dysfunctional, and is not peripheral, but central to Islam.

    2)”then they must confront the substantial grounding in the texts and traditions of Islam which their fellow violent and unjust Muslims indeed can point to…”
    And see here’s the thing. How do you suppose the reformist muslims go about doing this? Change the text? Have alternate interpretations of the text? And why would the radicals listen or change what they are doing today?

    They can try. If they can’t succeed, and/or if their prospects of success looks grim, that doesn’t make it any less of a problem for us. That’s the problem of Islam – a problem that is, once again spilling over in deadly ways to affect non-Muslims in various parts of the world, after a period of about 300 years during which Islam had been too weak to try to spread beyond its borders severely delimited by the stupendous expansion of Western colonialism. If they can’t succeed, we still have to protect ourselves from the spillover. Now, I sympathize to some extent with the “angry bees nest theory” of Muslims which you and eagle seem to subscribe to – to wit, that any time we make Muslims angry (or “offended” or feel “insulted”), it presents the potential danger of triggering their violent side, so therefore if we just try to tiptoe around them and please their every whim and desire, maybe they won’t hurt us, and maybe they will remain contained. Indeed, Islam was less “restive” and excitable, it seemed, prior to the 1970s, so maybe we should return to trying to treat them the way we treated them then, and we could make the problem more manageable. However, a couple of things militate against this theory:

    1) One important reason why Islam was less of a geopolitical, trans-national problem prior to the 1970s is because Islam was far weaker – particularly the further back you go. The oil weapon didn’t begin to really kick in for the oil-rich Muslims until the 1950s. And as I mentioned above, Islam had already been through the weakest period of its entire 1400-year history, roughly spanning from the late 17th century (the last time it was able to mount an actual major military invasion against the West) to the mid-20th century (when its oil weapon begin to kick in). As those 300 years progressed, the West became more and more spectacularly superior in technology, science, military capabilities, politics, laws, social progress, and colonization of the world. By the 19th century, various Western powers had come to control large chunks of the Muslim world – a terrible, tragic blow to Muslim pride, particularly as they could really do nothing about it (other than try to muster fairly small regional jihads against the Colonizing Powers, as for example in parts of Africa).

    2) Muslims are very patient: they can wait not only years and decades, but centuries, in the pursuit of their goal. An article by Louis Massignon in the June 1953 issue of Oriens (a scholarly journal on the history of Islam and related subjects) argues that the conquest of Contantinople in 1453 by Muslims had been a dream of Muslims for centuries (indeed going back to a legend about Mohammed’s dream to conquer the “Romans” which in his day meant the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantines), and this dream had been actively preached and recited in mosques for centuries – i.e., the flame of conquering this great city was kept alive sociologically and theologically for centuries, as more important and influential Muslims kept on trying to muster the forces to successfully take it (several attacks on Byzantium preceded the final success). And to this day – at least up to the day Prof. Massignon wrote his article, in 1953 – the success of that military capture (attended by much horrible brutality and slaughters, of course) of Constantinople (renamed Istanbul) is still officially celebrated in the Christian church the Muslims stole and re-made into a mosque – the Blue Mosque. The moral of this story is that Muslims can hunker down and wait until the time is right. Even now, the time might not be right – i.e., Muslims who want to revive their dream of their glory days and start to renew their supremacist imperialism, probably won’t be able to succeed, and they may have played their hand too soon. But just because a group miscalculates their capability to succeed, doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t try before their time is ripe – and in merely trying, such Muslims can, as we have already seen (and may yet see in worse terms), wreak terrible havoc and mayhem.

    “I would ask cerebrate to prove that Spencer has ever said this in any way, shape or form”
    He hasn’t, it is my conclusion based on his writings and interviews. He keeps saying he does it to encourage dialogue, but i haven’t seen anything close to dialogue yet.

    Spencer has had many dialogues with Muslim apologists over the past few years (including a couple of non-Muslims, such as Dinesh D’Souza, who espouse basically the opposite viewpoint from his, roughly approximately the view of you and eagle here). In addition, over the years, he has had many informal dialogues with Muslim visitors to the comments sections of JW (at least they have claimed to be Muslim). I have read the transcripts of most of these dialogues, official and unofficial, and I have found the Muslim apologists to be evasive, sophistical, often rude, and indulging in logical fallacies, while I have found Spencer to be gentlemanly, logical and unfailingly willing and able to provide evidence for his assertions.

    Here is a direct yes /no question for you.In your opinion is the central point of Robert’s writings that The teachings of the Quran/ The Activities of mohammed are the major/most important cause for the atrocities committed by muslims?

    Well, I don’t think that’s the central point, but it’s close to it. Spencer does not centrally document and then analyze the indications of a direct ideological connection between the atrocities committed in our time and the Koran & Sunna. His mountain of evidence at Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch building up over 3 years now, of course, contains lots of instances of such a connection; but the more central point of Spencer is to show that such a connection is there and all too easily and logically to be made. Someone like Raymond Ibrahim, for example, in his recent book, is more centrally focused on the actual connections made by al Qaeda to the Koran, Sunna and glorious history of Islamic imperialism. And Andrew Bostom has done similar work with showing these connections in various stages of Islamic history. Again, Spencer has provided copious raw materials for demonstrating that such connections exist, in the numerous different stories culled from news organizations all over the world over the past few years and dumped like a giant ever-growing mountain of data at JW and DW, but he has not made much of an effort to pull them all together and organize them into a clear and comprehensive presentation. It would be nice if someone would.

    [to be continued]

  59. snatchmaker Says:

    Correction to my preceding post:

    I wrote:

    “Spencer does not centrally document and then analyze the indications of a direct ideological connection between the atrocities committed in our time and the Koran & Sunna.”

    Should read (additions in CAPS):

    “Spencer does not centrally (THOUGH HE DOES INCIDENTALLY, AND MASSIVELY) document and then analyze the indications of a direct ideological connection EXPLICITLY EXPRESSED BY THE JIHADISTS THEMSELVES between the atrocities committed in our time and the Koran & Sunna.

  60. snatchmaker Says:

    awake,

    I agree with you about that site I linked. Ironically, it echoes what cerebrate himself has said more than once: “How do you suppose the reformist muslims go about doing this [confronting the aspects of Islam that are inspiring the dangerous Muslims]? Change the text? Have alternate interpretations of the text? And why would the radicals listen or change what they are doing today?” Therefore, cerebrate essentially agrees with us, insofar as he thinks the reformist Muslims don’t have much of an Islamic leg to stand on in relation to their dangerous co-religionists. Where cerebrate differs from us most pertinently, it seems, is that he places far more value & hope in those Muslims who are, in effect, not really following their Islam with enough fidelity to “activate” its militantly supremacist and expansionist core. Cerebrate seems to invest these reformist quasi-Muslims with both a quantitative and qualitative preponderance, in contrast to their dangerous co-religionists:

    1) quantitatively, cerebrate seems to think they reformist quasi-Muslims vastly outnumber their dangerous co-religionists;

    and

    2) qualitatively, cerebrate seems to think the sociopolitical substance of this vast majority of reformist quasi-Muslims has more power and entrenchment than does the sociopolitical substance of their dangerous co-religionists.

    I.e., I think it’s a moot point which one of the two populations of Muslims are “truer” to Islam — and cerebrate more or less waffles on this point (perhaps perceiving that he is ill-equipped to demonstrate it with arguments and data): the pragmatic point is which of the two populations is the majority, and which of the two has the power and the de facto (but not the de jure) influence to decide what is Islam and what it is to be Muslim.

    This sociopolitical paradigm seems to ignore historical and theological factors, such as the fact that Islam was formerly more aggressively dangerous geopolitically, when it had the means to be so; and only recently in history have Muslims been too weak to be so. The paradigm also ignores the capacity for the equation to be in flux and capable of changing, whereby more and more from the one population (the reformists) can and do, join ranks with the other, more traditionally and authentically Islamic population. Indeed, cerebrate and eagle seem to sometimes express the curious notion expressed by others (like D’Souza) that the peaceful reformist-minded (or at least passively peaceful and harmless) Muslims will suddenly become militant and dangerous if we don’t stop criticizing their Islam. If such peaceful Muslims are so vulnerable to having their militant passions triggered by us criticizing Islam, they were never really peaceful to begin with — and in fact, they were simply authentic Muslims who had become psychologically/sociologically dormant until words and circumstances “activated” them.

  61. in2thefray Says:

    @Snatch:

    Indeed, cerebrate and eagle seem to sometimes express the curious notion expressed by others (like D’Souza) that the peaceful reformist-minded (or at least passively peaceful and harmless) Muslims will suddenly become militant and dangerous if we don’t stop criticizing their Islam.

    I don’t recall cerebrate or Eagle ever stating that. It is a somewhat dishonest representation on your part.The post was about hate and early comments looked at hateful non productive remarks. The Muslims that are not Islamists/Jihadists are not the ones that get the biggest charge out of criticism. For sure said Islamists do indeed use these comments and then distort and present them to others. Classic case in point. Danish cartoons. Controversy required the external manipulation and flame stoking of just two nut jobs.

    This sociopolitical paradigm seems to ignore historical and theological factors, such as the fact that Islam was formerly more aggressively dangerous geopolitically,…

    Moral relativism usually pisses people off but did any of you ever study the Holy Roman Empire. Not the Romans but the Vatican led empire that killed unbelievers and dominated the political agenda of its era ?

    “Where can moderate or liberal Muslims (if there is such a thing) go to make common cause with Non-muslims concerned about stopping jihad and supremacist Islam?”

    In the West the West serves all best by requiring assimilation of immigrants. Freedoms of speach,assembly and worship. You put this together you will find all parties getting along. this is not a naive pipe dream. Europe has failed integrating Muslims. The West will fail in whole if it refuses to abide by it’s laws.
    @Alex:

    I don’t go along with lumping all Muslims together which is not fair, I do feel that Islam as a religion is fair game

    If Muslims believe in Islam and all the interwoven nature etc. how do you separate the two ? My point is can one tolerate Muslims but not Islam ?

    In the sense of actively pursuing jihad violence, only a tiny minority. In the sense of supporting those who perpetrate violence, a considerably higher percentage. Note, for example, that on September 11, 2006, Al-Jazeera asked Muslims, “Do you support Osama bin Laden?” 49.9% of respondents said that yes, they did.

    Since the %’s are in the 80’s re attacks on civilians,AlQaeda and OBL’s aactions. In he 80’s against them !

  62. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    reading only the goals, It seems an ok site. How good it is depends on the how they intend implementing the first goal.

  63. cerebate Says:

    awake
    your reading comprehension skill is as poor as always.

    “He bases his whole argument on the fact that a specific footnote was missing ..”
    No , i have repeatedly stated that even the footnote is misleading. And that the major part of the story should not be a footnote.
    This is an example of manipulation, with Spencer still being able to quote “I did not lie”.

    “He preferes to write off the entire JW commentating comunity as unreasonable ….”
    The comments speak for themselves far more eloquently than I can.

    “Of course, he never actually corrects anything that Robert has said.”
    See above. I did send you the links where people have spent time pointing out Spencer’s manipulations.

  64. cerebate Says:

    Alexon
    You are the only person with whom i will still reasonably discuss any other issues.

    Snatchmaker
    ” far more value & hope in those Muslims who are, in effect, not really following their Islam with enough fidelity ..”
    Oy vey!

    “I.e., I think it’s a moot point which one of the two populations of Muslims are “truer” to Islam — and cerebrate more or less waffles on this point ”

    The reason I ‘waffle’ is because
    a. I believe the Quran is an inanimate entity, it doesnt make anyone do anything. People who read it and decide that it tells them to commit various acts of violence are at fault. Other ‘s read it and become better humans. I cant judge and decide which is the true interpretation, neither do i find it relevant. The interpretation is true for each of them.

    b. I am not , nor have ever been a muslim. I find it ridiculous to comment with any certainity what or what is not a true muslim. I do know from my own experience and from others that religion is not an all or nothing deal, that various factions and sects interpret their texts in different ways and state that their way is the only true way. There is no way of knowing in this life atleast with any degree of certainity who is right.
    You are no better than the fundamentalist , you have formed your impression of the Quran and insist that it is true for all muslims and that any muslim who thinks differently and more importantly acts differently is not following Islam with any fidelity. Thats your problem , whatever interest I had of continuing this discussion with you has now evaporated.
    The rest of the comment will be spent poking fun at you.

    ” Cerebrate seems to invest these reformist quasi-Muslims with both a quantitative and qualitative preponderance”
    I call some of these quasi-muslims my friends and funnily enough they believe they are true muslims. Its quite funny really to see you , a non muslim , who probably has learnt Islam from the internet, think himself qualified enough to judge muslims and call them quasi – muslims. Yes I place my hope on the moderates. It is the only way out without conflict.

    “the pragmatic point is which of the two populations is the majority”
    Right. if the majority of the 1 billion muslims are violent fundamentalists , then Robert would have run out of disk space on his server years ago.

    “Indeed, cerebrate and eagle seem to sometimes express the curious notion expressed by others (like D’Souza) Muslims will suddenly become militant and dangerous if we don’t stop criticizing their Islam”
    Oh man. And how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion about our views?.Let me spell it out for you, since you and awake seem to be evenly matched on your single digit IQ levels,
    the people who can change or do something about the extremists are the moderates . They need our(non -muslim) cooperation to achieve this. By insulting their faith and calling them quasi muslim, will turn them away from us and reduce chances of a peaceful solution. The hatred espoused by people (e.g. on JW) can be used by the Islamic fundamentalists to incite hatred. which statement form the above did you not understand? please tell me so that I can rephrase it using simpler words.

    “If such peaceful Muslims are so vulnerable to having their militant passions triggered by us criticizing Islam, they were never really peaceful to begin with ”
    You’ve never seen a riot , have you? Picturise this. Your a moderate of religion X. There’s a riot betwee X and religion Y. Fundamentalist leader of X shows you a video tape where people of religion Y are stating That pregnant women should be killed along with their unborn child and also proceed to describe how to kill the woman.
    The next time you see a gathering of people from religion Y what are you going to think?
    The above is a true story told to me by a friend from religion Y. Religion Y is not Islam.
    You get your limited views from the internet. I base mine on the life I have lived.

  65. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    are you sure you and awake aren’t blood relations?

    ‘How do you suppose the reformist muslims go about doing this And why would the radicals listen or change what they are doing today?” Therefore, cerebrate essentially agrees with us, insofar as he thinks the reformist Muslims don’t have much of an Islamic leg ‘
    No such agreement. You didnt get the irony in the question. The point is that the moderates already do say that their interpretation of a peaceful Islam is the correct one. However they cant convince even you or awake or most of the JW folks, They really have no chance of convincing a violent fundamentalist Jihadist.
    This is not because they dont have a Islamic leg to stand on , but because they are faced by hatred , stupidity bigotry and so on . Reason and Logic has traditionally failed when opposed with the above.

  66. Eagle Says:

    My apologies for not paying too much attention to the comments of late. I am working hard on the new series and between that and other things, I have not been paying too much attention to the comments. Which can be a good thing, it keeps my blood pressure down lol. 😛

    Besides it appears that cerebate and in2thefray are who the comments are directed at. Great job by the way. 😀

    Just wanted everyone to know why you don’t see me around here as much. I’m not as quick as some, so it takes me more time to do my research and writing. 😦

    Eventually, I will read all the comments and answer ones directed towards me. Thanks for your patiences 😀

  67. alexonhere Says:

    Alexon here. I did kind of a stupid thing last night. I decided to eat a bunch of chocolate (dark chocolate. yum) around 11pm. It just so happens that I am very sensitive to caffeine and chocolate has quite a bit in it. So I got pretty wide awake and stayed up WAY too late.

    So what did I do with all that wide awake energy? Believe it or not I started reading the considerable back and forth arguments on the What Is A Bigot thread. I spent like 3 or 4 hours combing through all that! Yikes! There were actually some pretty decent arguments being made (and some not so good ones) but staying up that late was a big mistake I paid for dearly this morning and afternoon. Sleep deprivation is not fun 😦

    So anyway, I’m not going to do the same thing here again tonight reading and setting forth more discussion myself.

    I’ll be back soon enough. –alexon.

  68. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    Your words:

    “I find it ridiculous to comment with any certainity what or what is not a true muslim. I do know from my own experience and from others that religion is not an all or nothing deal, that various factions and sects interpret their texts in different ways and state that their way is the only true way. ”

    Agreed, and take heed of your own words. You in NO WAY proved Spencer wrong. He was accused by you and was refuted PERSONALLY, by him. That being said, those words by you irrevocably support Robert’s position and his goal. You cannot express what Islam truly means to the masses of sects nor to each individual. The jihadists, on the otherhand are quite sure what and from where their mandates are…..Robert’s point. To deny that, in my estimation, is to deny the very principle that JW puts forth….that there are elements of Islam, taken from the canonical texts, the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira, that are DEFINATELY the impetus behind the jihadist mindset.

    You talk about offering solutions, yet offer none. To ignore this enormously obvious fact, does nothing to offer a solution. Pretending it doesn’t exist won’t make it go away, nor will it garner any support for those whose seek the same goal. Moderates who proclaim that the problem is not Islam, but rather Islamism, as an absolute unmoveable reply, are essentially valueless in this “supposed” common cause.

    Do some research abut Islam, historically, and as is applied today, as a sociopolitical tool of the jihadists, and then you MAY be qualified to comment on the matter.

    Still waiting for YOU to identify yourself. For my part, I am a nominal Roman Catholic Christian.

    What say you?

  69. snatchmaker Says:

    in2thefray:

    I don’t recall cerebrate or Eagle ever stating that [“that the peaceful reformist-minded (or at least passively peaceful and harmless) Muslims will suddenly become militant and dangerous if we don’t stop criticizing their Islam”]. It is a somewhat dishonest representation on your part.The post was about hate and early comments looked at hateful non productive remarks. The Muslims that are not Islamists/Jihadists are not the ones that get the biggest charge out of criticism.

    If non-“Islamist” Muslims do not get dangerous as a reaction to criticism, and if such types of Muslims constitute the vast majority, then what’s the problem with criticism? If criticism merely serves to “smoke out” that tiny minority of extremists, then it actually serves a pragmatic function of bringing them out into the light for us to identify. Surely, this would be a good thing, since it helps to enable us to separate the harmless Muslims from the dangerous Muslims — a crucial task that seems nevertheless to be exceedingly difficult, given how many of the actual terrorists have been (according to friends, acquaintences, neighbors, family) nice, friendly, polite, middle-class, university educated, on rowing teams, on cricket teams, as doctors on medical staffs, etc.

    For sure said Islamists do indeed use these comments and then distort and present them to others. Classic case in point. Danish cartoons. Controversy required the external manipulation and flame stoking of just two nut jobs.

    Now you appear to be waffling; insofar as “Islamists” successfully use such harmless criticisms of Mohammed, etc., and insofar as their successful use riles up non-“Islamist” Muslims, then those non-“Islamist” Muslims are not so non-“Islamist” to begin with. Only children and animals are so easily impressionable that they would forsake their harmless moderation to become screaming mobs calling for burning of embassies and for the deaths of people simply for the “crimes” of verbal and visual criticisms. And if these adult non-“Islamist” Muslims are not children or animals, and yet they are that easily riled up, then they are more fanatical than you otherwise would like to claim. You can’t have it both ways — unless you dehumanize these non-“Islamist” Muslims and in your mind take away their ethical responsibility and maturity such that they “can’t help themselves”.

    “This sociopolitical paradigm seems to ignore historical and theological factors, such as the fact that Islam was formerly more aggressively dangerous geopolitically,…”
    Moral relativism usually pisses people off but did any of you ever study the Holy Roman Empire. Not the Romans but the Vatican led empire that killed unbelievers and dominated the political agenda of its era ?

    Yes, but the modern West has outgrown this and shows no signs of reviving it, whereas too many Muslims around the world indeed show signs of reviving what seems to be a fundamental imperative toward supremacist imperialism in Islamic texts and traditions. Only irrational people set up an equivalency between two processes, where one of the two has long become defunct while the other is showing dangerous signs of revival. This irrationality then becomes grotesque when that equivalency is used, incoherently, to argue that in fact the defunct process (Western imperialism) is worse than the one showing signs of dangerous revival (Islamic imperialism).

  70. in2thefray Says:

    Snatch…I’m thinking if anyone here is irrational it’s definitely not me.
    As far as my “waffling” .I just pointed out an incident that imo related to the thread and the theme of the original post. All “isms” throughout history have benefited from skilled people twisting the reality of/ for others. I never said you or others shouldn’t critique anything. I felt I was just pointing out that such criticisms are fodder for those that want to use it.
    The thought that Muslims are universally running a riot that is widely supported just doesn’t wash. Over 1 BILLION Muslims worldwide yet the streets are still “safe” in a majority of the world.
    Western Imperialism defunct ? I don’t even know where to start on that one . I would point out to you that much of what is viewed as modern Western Imperialism is directly linked to the upsurge in Islamic supremacist movements.Globalization and military operations worldwide. Supremacist Movement btw is a better title. Be it the remnants of Arab Nationalism,various sect based Islamic / sharia political positions or the coming Islamic Union. This last one will be the most successful and much like the EU on steroids.
    Anyway if we’re going to devolve into snark and name calling let me know will ya ?

  71. cerebate Says:

    “You in NO WAY proved Spencer wrong. He was accused by you and was refuted PERSONALLY, by him”

    I believe that his bias was apparent in the writing.
    Again is there any difference between
    a) X said mutiliate them.
    b) X said mutiliate them. Footnote- X was convinced not to mutilate them
    c) X said mutilate them. God spoke to X. X changed his mind and said noone should mutilate them.
    You(and Spencer) believe a, b and c are the same.
    I believe a and b are both different from c) and a) and b) clearly show bias and manipulation. You believe spencer has refuted me(he has responded , quite different), go ahead, you were always delusional, The statements speak for themselves. And this isnt the only example, The person on youtube has detailed all the inconsistencies. I dont see either Robert or his fan club publishing any rebuttal. Why is that i wonder?

  72. cerebate Says:

    “You cannot express what Islam truly means to the masses of sects nor to each individual. The jihadists, on the otherhand are quite sure what and from where their mandates are”
    Yes the jihadists are sure (and not all their mandates are religion related or approved). However is that your and roberts point?
    e.g. Snatchmaker believes muslims can kill other muslim’s by de-muslimizing them. Osama believes he can kill other muslims because he is sending them to heaven. What Quranic/Islamic Justification is there? How do you explain the Taliban growing and selling opium? What Quranic/islamic justification is there? How do you explain the Taliban killing a 15 year old for possessing american dollars? What islamic justification is there?
    You believe the taliban do everything they do because they follow Islam strictly. Quite clearly they do a lot which islam does not approve of or have justification for. You glibly ignore this because it doesnt fit your point of view that the Jihadists do everything in the name of Islam.

    I have never denied that some point to Islam and justify their actions. We just draw different conclusions from the above point.

  73. cerebate Says:

    “You talk about offering solutions, yet offer none”
    The solutions I can offer fit the problems I have seen in my country. i havent seen that much of american society to be able to offer one (6 months in the US of A)
    So here goes , all of the below need to be done , they aren’t short term and they arent easy. None of them will solve the problem completely but hopefully things should improve. bear in mind this is based on India.

    a. The muslims need to educate themselves better. This means reduce madrassas and enroll the children in public schools. Ideally religion should be taught at home or atleast by trustworthy imam’s. In places like Bombay this is improving. In rural areas, there is no significant improvement. It is hard to find a job with a madrassa degree. In a public school you are exposed to different faiths and you will befriend people of different religions. it is hard to insult your good friends.
    b. Stop ghettoising and living in areas of your own religion. Whenever there have been areas where only Muslims stay and others where only hindu’s stay, in time’s of strife there have always been problems. However people need to adjust to each other. In my building , after some years a new muslim tenant arrived. he insisted on killing a goat for bakri eid on the buildings terrace, inspite of objects by the strictly vegetarian hindu’s and inspite of the remaining muslim’s telling him not to , and that he could kill the goat elsewhere.
    Note noone told him not to kill the goat only that he should do it somewhere else. Due to people like him , a lot of muslims have trouble renting appartments.
    c. Celebrate each other festivals. I have found that the muslims celebrating diwali or ganpati, the hindu’s eating with the muslims on eid does help, tying rakhi’s to each other.
    d. prevent politicians/religious leaders acting as if they speak for the entire community. Publicly denounce/shame/laugh at those who continue to do this.
    If possible have laws that prevent incitement/hate speeches.Implement them uniformly, be seen to implement them uniformly. Implement minimal educational qualification and retirement age for politicians. prevent criminals from standing for elections.
    e. Understand that all religion as it exists today has been adulterated in some way or the other. Stop following it literally. Use the brain that God has given you
    f. Support uniform laws if the citizen asks forit. There is a famous Shah Bano case where an old muslim lady was divorced by her husband (who gave her nothing)and
    the imam’s didnt like the court interfering. The Indian politicians passed laws saying the muslims could deal with the problem themselves. Instead they should have said the muslim lady is an Indian citizen first and she enjoys all the right’s any Indian does if she chooses to approach the court. If she wishes muslim sharia laws then she shouldnt approach the court. instead we have the sad story of having a hindu civil code ,a muslim civil code and other rubbish.
    g. Dont let the right wingers spead hatred (in India – the VHP , the Bajrang Dal). these are extremists who will do anything for power. Ban them as you would any terrorist organisation.
    h. do something about the increased population. this saps the resources and creates a lot of frustrated unemployed youth.
    i. Do something about the treatment of women. Enforce the laws already in place. Any society with female infanticide(and hence imbalance in male/female ratio) becomes a violent society. Again education is key. Abolition of rules like the female daughter does not inherit , dowry are necessary for this.

    Have to cook now ,so ill take a break , there are more. But before I go, Awake, let me have your solutions please.

  74. cerebate Says:

    OFFTOPIC
    Awake
    “Still waiting for YOU to identify yourself. For my part, I am a nominal Roman Catholic Christian.”
    I have answered this on JW, ill try again
    I was born a Hindu. When I was old enough to understand religion/god and when I had friends of different religions and understood religion and also saw some of the real world, I didnt believe myself Hindu anymore. I used to call myself agnostic till I realised that an agnostic says god’s existence cant be proved, and I didnt believe that , i believed in God though I have different opinions of what God does (e.g. I believe God does not interfere on any happenings on earth and we have a brain and conscience because of that). I also developed a dislike for the way religion was used to create boundaries between people and came to the conclusion that the good that religion does could be done in the absence of religion as well and that society would be better of without religion.
    For laugh’s I took a test online which said it would match my views to the known religions and my results were
    im a 100% match for secular humanist. im 65% thervana buddhist, 43% sikh, 35% church of christ,34% scientologist, 28% hindu and 26% roman catholic and 26% islam
    But it only means that my views today match those (on a 20 question mutliple choice quiz) of a Secular humanist. I refuse to label myself as that because my views might change and there is no religion or viewpoint i 100% agree with. Life is dynamic religion et al is static.

    So what am I? A member of the mammalian species Homo Sapiens. (I dont even like labelling myself with my country name, its another way to draw boundaries)
    You probably wont be satisfied with that, but its the best I can do.
    You use the word ‘nominal’ – I wonder if the Pope agrees that you can have ‘Nominal’ Catholics? If christianity allows for ‘Nominal’ Christians? What makes you think your interpretation of nominal christianity is valid? Is a nominal christian same as a bad christian?
    You dont have to answer the above, But the next time you think you know more about someone else’s beliefs think about that.

  75. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    Good answers, I actually appreciated them all. If you believe in a divine deity, I would have to suggest you consider yourself agnostic. I am satisfied with them as well, especially your acknowledgement that the jihadist mindset is at least partially attributable to the core Islamic texts, a central point to Spencer’s position, which I share. You don’t have to agree with his approach but his position is based on real-time factual events and his commentary is based off Islamist statements primarilly. I have no problem with our disagreement there. It is what it is.

    Solutions?, well that is tough one. There is only so much an infidel can do to make Islam more compatible with established western culture. I believe Robert has a five-point plan, one he re-referenced on JW just today, I believe. Take a look.

    M. Zuhdi Jasser makes some excellent points and suggestions as well. He nearly parrots Robert’s sentiment, with the noted exception that he does not consider the core Islamic texts as any part of the problem that we see today with Islamic terrorism.

    As soon as I find the link to his latest post, I will supply it, hoping it makes it through Eagle’s filter.

    Btw, I don’t give a rat’s ass about what the Pope thinks about me or my status. That is integral to my point of who I am.

    Regards,

    awake

  76. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    Here is the link, as promised. A good read in my estimation.

    http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/terrorism.php?id=1384836

  77. alexonhere Says:

    Too tired to post much of anything again tonight.

    Note to Snatchmaker and Awake; Cerebate may not appreciate what you have to say but I do. Thanks for the high quality posts. Cerebate, you’ve got my respect too if not my complete agreement. But if we agreed on everything that would be boring (one reason I’m kind of glad to get away from JW for awhile). I do appreciate the exchange. Eagle, sorry for highjacking your original post for all this; your indulgence is appreciated. Ok I’m done appreciating for now 😉

    Two personal anecdotes to follow when I have chance.
    @ cerebate; one is directly related to your experience with your fiancee and Catholic family encounter (mine has a much happier outcome). The other about a Pakistani man I met at a remote flea market, post 9-11.

    All for now.

  78. Eagle Says:

    alex,

    No worries, hijack away, I have been enjoying watching some of the back and forth.

  79. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate:

    I believe the Quran is an inanimate entity, it doesnt make anyone do anything. People who read it and decide that it tells them to commit various acts of violence are at fault. Other ’s read it and become better humans.

    This is a simplistic way of understanding the role of religious holy texts in society and culture (let alone of understanding any important symbolisms and their symbiotic roles in society), an understanding that ignores the complex psycho-sociological tissues binding “inanimate” things that have been deemed important in a culture with the ideas and actions of the humans who interpret and are affected by those things, and that all together form an indissolubly reciprocal dynamic.

    “I cant judge and decide which is the true interpretation, neither do i find it relevant. The interpretation is true for each of them.”

    Yes: The truth itself of the interpretations (of Koran and Sunna) is not relevant; but the truth of the interpretations (of Koran and Sunna), as it is deemed to be relevant within a cultural milieu, is relevant, since that truth of those many interpretations inspires, guides, and motivates behaviors – and behaviors have concrete consequences, some beneficial, some pernicious, some relatively neutral. It is the truth in the context of the milieu of Islam (however wonderfully many-splendored and varied like a marvelous tapestry it might be) that we are talking about, not the absolute ontological truth of the Koran and Sunna beyond time and space.

    I am not , nor have ever been a muslim. I find it ridiculous to comment with any certainity what or what is not a true muslim.

    Once again, you are confusing absolute truth from functional truth: the absolute truth of what defines a “true Muslim” is not relevant to this discussion we are having; but the definition of the “true Muslim” as that definition is defended and as it motivates behaviors in the Muslim world is relevant to this discussion – rather centrally relevant. If this definition has variations and reflects sociological complexity in the Muslim world, that does not necessarily and automatically annihilate the problem of religious obsessions with such a definition in the Muslim world and the fanatical ideas and behaviors that arise out of those obsessions; it just makes that problem more difficult to tease out of the overall complexity of the warp and woof of that wondrously “diverse tapestry” that is Islam. You, et al. here, seem to think only in Either/Or and Black/White terms about this problem: EITHER it is a problem that consigns all 1.2 billion Muslims to condemnation and then the slippery slope to genocide on our part against them – OR, there is no problem of Islam and the vast majority of Muslims are harmless nice friendly people. This kind of apparently ironclad Either/Or dichotomy allows no room for a wide spectrum in between, whereby Islam can indeed be a problem insofar as it is nourishing and enabling many pathologies that give rise to dangerous and unjust behaviors among too many Muslims, but that does not necessarily entail condemning all 1.2 billion Muslims nor does it even entail thinking that a majority of them are directly immediately dangerous.

    And in a couple of other statements by you, you demonstrate an inability to understand what I have been saying in this regard:

    You are no better than the fundamentalist , you have formed your impression of the Quran and insist that it is true for all muslims and that any muslim who thinks differently and more importantly acts differently is not following Islam with any fidelity.

    I never insisted that the dangerous & unjust interpretation of the Koran (and Sunna – most Muslims (Sunnis) do not merely follow the Koran, they also follow the Sunna, and even Shia have their own equivalent of the Sunna) is “true for all Muslims”. There’s your Either/Or dichotomy: if you encounter someone who has serious substantive criticisms of Islam and of Muslims, you seem to automatically lump them in the box of “you are condemning all Muslims”. It seems you never think of a third alternative outside the Either/Or dichotomy, or in between its stark polarities, whereby Islam can have serious substantive problems that too many Muslims are either ignoring or passively enabling, but that doesn’t mean that “all Muslims” are being condemned.

    I call some of these quasi-muslims my friends and funnily enough they believe they are true muslims. Its quite funny really to see you , a non muslim , who probably has learnt Islam from the internet, think himself qualified enough to judge muslims and call them quasi – muslims.

    My reference to them as “quasi-Muslims” stemmed from my sense that, as I wrote, you seem to agree that reformist Muslims don’t have much of an Islamic leg to stand on by which to intellectually defend their harmless and just interpretation of Islam against the violently expansionist and unjust (in the sense that, for example, discrimination against women, gays and religious minorities is unjust) interpretation. My sense of your seeming agreement arose from your words I had quoted: “How do you suppose the reformist muslims go about doing this [confronting the aspects of Islam that are inspiring the dangerous Muslims]? Change the text? Have alternate interpretations of the text? And why would the radicals listen or change what they are doing today?”Therefore, logically, such Muslims who don’t have an Islamic leg to stand on would be “quasi-Muslims”. You then later responded to this, by writing:

    You didnt get the irony in the question. The point is that the moderates already do say that their interpretation of a peaceful Islam is the correct one.

    Just because they might “already say” their interpretation of Islam is the correct one, doesn’t make it so. Merely asserting something does not suffice: the person asserting has to also present an argument, which is also based in verifiable data. Spencer has been asking for years for such an argument, based in verifiable data, from Muslims who assert that harmless and just Islam is the correct, and overwhelmingly mainstream, version of Islam. No Muslim has yet presented that argument to him – either in the many actual debates and round-table discussions he has had with them, or in essays they have written in response to him, or in any other response to his challenge. Instead, they keep making their assertion, without supporting it with cogent counter-arguments and credible data. Some may offer superficial attempts at cogent counter-argument and presentation of credible data, but from my reading of the transcripts of those few who have, it amounts to sophistical propaganda, not genuine debate skills.

    What seems to me to be going on in the Muslim world is that the harmless and relatively just Muslims of the world are mainly only that way due to a kind of constant, low-level state of denial of the stronger arguments and data supporting their violently expansionist and unjust co-religionists, even while the harmless and relatively just Muslims persist in remaining members of that organization called Islam – whether out of filial and/or cultural sentimentality, or out of passivity, or out of genuine fear of being economically, politically and/or familially ostracized at best, to being threatened with violence or actually attacked or killed, at worst. When the challenge to their reflexive devotion to Islam becomes more direct, focused and inescapable – in the context of actual debates or back-and-forth communications via papers or emails etc., they will tend to resort to sophistical arguments, logical fallacies, ad hominems, tu quoque, straw men, red herrings, prickly irritability, avoidance, evasion, etc. All because, it seems, they indeed do not have that Islamic leg to stand on – and yet they obstinately persist in clutching doggedly to their cultural prop of a wooden leg.

    However they cant convince even you or awake or most of the JW folks, They really have no chance of convincing a violent fundamentalist Jihadist.

    They could convince me, if they stopped indulging in all those immature pretenses to dialogue I noted above, and engaged the issue in seriousness, cogency, and respect for basic rules of logic and dialogue. Whether they could convince the violent jihadist is another matter, and anyway, of what importance is that, if those violent jihadists are such an eensy-weensy minority? The key question for us non-Muslims is not how do we domesticate and modernize the small minority of actually violent jihadists who keep popping up in various spots around the globe, but how can we discern if there exists an overall Islam that will help us neutralize (condemn, hunt down, and disable their operations and recruitment abilities) those violent jihadists and their less violent enablers and supporters of social injustices? The likelihood of a positive answer to this exigent question does not encourage me, when I have yet to encounter a self-professedly harmless and just Muslim engage in actual authentic dialogue, as opposed to the sophistical variety I articulated above.

  80. awake Says:

    well put snatchmaker.

  81. in2thefray Says:

    Snatchmaker. Your entry well written ; however ,you contradict your position many times.
    You roll on about how those with opposite views from yours are the ones with only two positions re Muslims. I would charge you are the one with only ONE view of Muslims.
    You accuse others of evading question re violence. Would you do the math as far as over a billion people following Islam on Earth yet you and I are still alive. To say they just haven’t gotten to us yet is the ultimate weakness in this discussion.
    Would you concede there are situations where innocent Muslims are killed or otherwise persecuted ? Further would you agree that the human response to such things are often violent ?
    Do you acknowledge that even in Islamic countries such as Pakistan and Jordan there are/ have been real efforts to combat extremists ?
    Reformists Muslims have very strong legs to stand on. Historically they stood quite tall up to the early 20th Century.

  82. cerebate Says:

    awake
    too tired from a game of cricket to read your links, Ill do it sometime this weekend.

    “your acknowledgement that the jihadist mindset is at least partially attributable to the core Islamic texts,”
    I never disputed it. The difference is i dont believe that you can change what a jihadist thinks(unless he realises his folly himself and there are examples) or that the Islamic texts are the *most* significant reason.

    “Good answers, I actually appreciated them all”
    Now Im embarrased.

    “Btw, I don’t give a rat’s ass about what the Pope thinks about me or my status.”
    Exactly. Thats the way it should it be. I fully agree that what you think about yourself and your religion is right for you. Now if only you can also agree to this, for the people you’ll call “bad muslims” , we might actually talk civilly!

    Offtopic
    Agnostic is that the existence of god cannot be proven or is unknown and may not be known with any certainity (god may or may exist). Hence not me. The closest is a spiritual agnostic but not quite.

  83. cerebate Says:

    awake
    for a change there’s nothing to disagree with in Roberts 5 point plan.
    However he fall’s into the same trap as the IslamIsPeace folks. Their five point plan omits anything they should be doing to solve the Jihadist problem concentrating instead on what other’s should feel about Islam. Robert makes the same mistake , he concentrates on what the Jihadist should be doing instead of what we can do. whatever Robert is saying has to come from the muslim’s themselves for it to be effective. us telling them to do it will probably not work. He does not address what causes jihadists(yes i know i know, violent verses in the Quran) and more importantly how to eliminate the circumstances that cause them.

  84. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    Hope the match went well.

    My argument here has NEVER been about Muslims, rather always about Islam, the tenets of the historically revealed canonical texts and those in the Islamic world who use them as justification for their actions. Their is no rationale that I have ever put forth as a blanket condemnation of Muslims as bad or even Islam as bad in totality. Far from it.

    As I have stated ad nauseum, and as others have, critical commmentary on the texts coupled with the criticism of those Muslims who speak about their ideology in a jihadist mindset, deserve our collective scorn. This perception is a daily occurence in the world we live in.

    I generally despise far-right evangelicals in the US nearly as much as Islamists, but in reality, the lack of support from Christian texts and their collective behavior in the last 200 years or so does not permit me to buy in to the religious moral equivalency argument.

    OT: I am becoming a spiritual agnostic mkore and more ach day myself. 🙂

    I agree with you that there is little we, as non-Muslims can do to change this, but we are not obliged to sit idly by and wait another few hundered years for this supposed Islamic reformation to occur. I am not particularly optimistic that it will ever happen, unfortunately

    I judge individuals on their own merits of words and actions. I would hope to be treated in kind.

    What Robert has tried to do is to put we non-Muslims in the same alert mindset. There are so many in the West without any comprehension of what discourse is occuring here on Eagle’s blog, let alone the harsh reality of Islamic aggression that Robert reports on a daily basis.

    Robert understands that he is powerless to change Islam as is currently used as justification for socio-political gain. He well knows that meaningful change must come from within. But he remains intrepid nonetheless, to inform the masses to the reality of the Islamic expansion and dominanace. There are so many who are absolutely clueless to this reality. He will at least call a spade a spade and back it up, and for that I credit him. He is a noble man for his efforts in educating us infidels to the insipid plan of the jihadists, those who employ other tactics besides overt violence. Without Robert Spencer I would not be here, genuinely seeking a solution to this dilemna.

    The circumstances that cause jihadism, besides the texts and those who shape Islamic ideology, is a very difficult point to pin down. Just look at yesterday’s posts on JW. Some people say it is boredom and an insignifigant life. Some say poverty, with the exception of the recent London and Scotland jihadists all being DOCTORS.

    Some say it isn’t Jihad at all, but rather Hiraba, or unsanctioned war. Some say it is US imperialism, Zionism or even plain old Islamophobia that causes Jihad…nonsense.

    All these apologists refuse to admit to the obvious correlation of Islamic terrorism and Islam. To the learned like you and me, this is a preposterous claim, but it is employed daily, and has a certain degree of success. There can be no solution to the problem of jihadist ideology, as it can derived from Islamic texts, unless its potential source is identified. Plain and simple. You cannot reform what you do not consider warranting reform.

    Robert’s position on that specific point has been and continues to be, crystal clear.

    Methinks you are right cerebate. We do not appear to differ that much as long as neither of us subscribe to the all or nothing concept, especially regarding Islam. But Islamic Jihad, that is another story.

    Regards,

    awake

  85. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    ” the absolute truth of what defines a “true Muslim” is not relevant to this discussion we are having; but the definition of the “true Muslim” as that definition is defended and as it motivates behaviors in the Muslim world is relevant to this discussion – rather centrally relevant.”

    Umm ..ok..if you insist(scratches head in puzzlement).
    Im confused as to what your position is
    True Muslim – relevant/irrelevant?
    True Islam – relevant/irrelevant?
    Im happy to go with irrelevant for both.

    “This is a simplistic way of understanding the role of religious holy texts ”
    aha , but is it wrong? If so why? It is consistent and wholly reasonable for me to say people are responsible for their actions and that very few people will do it solely on the basis of a religious text they have read. There will always be external factors. Some of which i have pointed to

    “You, et al. here, seem to think only in Either/Or and Black/White terms about this problem: EITHER it is a problem that consigns all 1.2 billion Muslims to condemnation …. OR, there is no problem of Islam and the vast majority of Muslims are harmless nice friendly people”
    Ha ha ha. People like you are in love with the strawman. You use it at every opportunity!.
    Yes the vast majority of muslims are harmless(do the math). Violent muslims and Jihadists are a problem. You believe the major (perhaps only) cause of violent muslims and jihadists is Islam. I dont.
    We agree They need to be stopped. The solutions offered by Jihadwatch regulars seem to be one that will lead to conflict. In conflict people will side with their country(perhaps religion if it portrayed in that manner) no matter what they believe about the actual war. War is never a solution, only a bigger problem. An alternate solution is hence needed. Its quite interesting to see how you conclude the above based on what Ive said.
    For that matter the person who can only see one color is you. You can’t even see black/white. I believe I have a more rounded opinion on what motivates Jihadists.
    In the UK (Ive stayed there two years), there are these repeated riots in leeds/birmingham between white right wingers and Asian youth (typically pakistani). What causes the conflict?
    JW chimes in with Islam!

    My take – A lot of asian’s believe settling in a foreign country is a sign of their success of having made it. However they feel guilty too and keep trying to instill their culture down their childrens throats as compensation. The child never fits in with a culture that doesnt exist and with a western culture that he has never been exposed too. The end result , they hang around with people who are exactly like them. their folks who have probably settled for a small low paying job , now find that western education is quite expensive and cant really school their children well, having not much western education themselves. End result a lot of unemployment. Add this to an atmosphere of mistrust and racial slurs of ‘Paki’ (by mostly unemployed low waged white supremacists, poked and prodded by a set of politicians trying to acquire a niche bank of votes. They are already frustrated by their jobs going to the brown skinned and chinese, their lower wage jobs taking by the slavic immigrants). Some of them see their religion as their identity, because they have never been allowed to feel british by either their parents or by the british themselves. They have no idea about their own country so what remains is religion.
    Now add to this a harsh criticism or Islam/Quran. Or an incident where a muslim girl is pestered by a white(or vice versa). Or a brawl outside a bar which might involve a muslim and a white.(None of these are justifications).
    And figure out where all the problem lies and what all can be done about it.

    Is this black and white enough for you?

    You do not seem to get the simple fact that for the moderate muslims they practice true Islam and the jihadists dont. for the jihadists they believe the same. You believe Islam is violent , so you agree with the jihadist interpretation and you point to the moderates and say “you there, quasi-muslim!” You believe they dont have an Islamic leg to stand on , the moderates believe that they do.
    The reason I ask how would you reform islam , is because Robert Spencer and the JW folks like to keep throwing this up , Islam/Quran is the cause, reform Islam/Quran. You’ll haven’t yet been able to answer – How?

    Again I believe you cannot convince a Jihadist of anything unless he sees something himself that causes him too change.(for further examples of why you cannot convince an irrational person of reason read the post’s addressed to yourself and figure out why we havent been able to convince you of anything!) The people you can deal with are the moderates. They need to figure out how to deal with the violent elements in their own community. We need to figure out how to help them.
    for e.g. in which case do you think the discussion is likely to continue
    NM(non muslim) – You know you need to do something about the violent element in your community who are using Islam to justify their actions
    Muslim – But they misinterpret Islam , Islam is for peace

    case 1
    NM – Aha thats because you are a Quasi Muslim and you dont really understand Islam. The Quran is the problem .Now let me tell you how to reform the Quran.
    or case 2
    NM – Oh good. Now how can you go about convincing the violent guy’s this? More importantly what would it take to teach your younger generation this? What can we do to help?

    “Just because they might “already say” their interpretation of Islam is the correct one, doesn’t make it so. ”
    Oh absolutely. Now apply this to yourself and JW.

    ” Spencer has been asking for years for such an argument, based in verifiable data”
    Easy. 9000 acts of islamic terror for 1.5 Billion muslims. Pick a figure for number of violent muslims per act. Subtract some for cases where the victims are muslims because Islam doesnt support violence against other muslims right ?or attacks that might be politically motivated or financially motivated( if you want). Account for duplicates because according to the American Media , Al Qaeda(sometimes Hamas) is behind everything.
    Divide by total muslims and multiply by 100 for a percentage. Tell me what you get.

    Islam is as muslims do, in my opinion anyway.

    Im curious are you religious?

    “I have yet to encounter a self-professedly harmless and just Muslim engage in actual authentic dialogue..”
    I dont blame them. you are probably calling them Quasi muslims by sentence 2. They probably follow the scott adam principle of never arguing with an idiot.

    Incidentally your debating skill’s leave a lot to be desired too.

  86. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    Found a couple of your comments in my spam file. I retrieved them and posted them.

    Just wanted to let you know.

  87. alexonhere Says:

    I didn’t read last night’s exchange between cerebate and Awake before posting. Looks like you two aren’t that far apart now which is good. I’m too tired to work throught the latest exchange between Snatchmaker and cerebate. I’m feeling rather peaceful tonight and don’t want to rock the boat 😉

    So on with my anecdotes before I head to bed.

    1) I’m not a voracious reader but I am a voracious listener and collector. I come from a musical family and after my playing days ended after college I started collecting records (mostly classical but also other like jazz etc). For years and years after college I scrimped by financially (that’s what you get with a liberal arts major 😦 ) and so had to collect on a very tight budget. This entailed feeding my collecting habit by going to Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc., and also library sales, flea-markets and antique fairs (for 78s). I rarely paid more than a dollar per record. “Junking” for records in this way is a kind of subculture which more people engage in that you might think. I suppose it’s kind of like people who pan for little gold nuggets in mountain streams. You just never know what you’ll find. Some days you’ll go out and come back empty-handed. Other days you’ll strike it lucky and bring home a treasure.

    As an aside: My luckiest find was probably at a flea-market I stopped at off a highway in Ohio, around year 2000. It was late-morning which means you usually find nothing good at all (the early bird truly does get the worm most the time. too bad I’m not an early bird). I was digging through a box of 78 rpm records priced at 25 cents per disk, and it was really picked over. Nothing even remotely interesting. Then, there it was: “Ferd Morton, piano” on the Gennett label. I saw right away why it was still there; 1) it was filthy dirty. 2) it was badly warped. and 3) other people didn’t recognize who Ferd Morton was or that it was early JAZZ piano. The artist would later become known as “Jelly Roll” Morton. What a great find! For 25 cents! And the great thing about 78s is that they can be cleaned up nicely and even de-warped (in the oven until they “relax” to flat again at about 125 degrees F., but don’t overcook!). It cleaned up beautifully and the de-warping went extremely well (I was nervous). It’s one of the highlights of my non-classical collection.

    to be continued in next post…

  88. alexonhere Says:

    Anyway… Back in 2002 or so I stopped by another flea-market in another midwestern state just off the highway. Like most flea-markets this one was depressing. The sellers are usually just scraping by and sell their stuff out of the back of a beat up truck or van. Most of the stuff being sold is awful junk. Everything’s rough, including most of the people there. No one is prospering. Smiles are scarce.

    To a record collector (there are more than you would think) this is the kind of setting which sometimes coughs up a Jelly Roll Morton, so I parked and went looking for boxes containing records (all flea-markets have records). As usual there was nothing good. It was a nice day though so I looked at other stuff for sale.

    One booth was unusually well-organized. It had a wide variety of household type small goods which most people need; batteries, kitchen gadgets, etc. Lots of little stuff and cheap. An old beat up conversion van was parked right behind the display. I figured I could use a pair of fingernail clippers so I checked the buckets for those. Sure enough there they were in all sizes and at a really good price. The seller by then had come around the van and we exchanged a pleasant greeting. Other than the well-organized display there was nothing that immediately stood out about this seller, except the pleasant greeting, his straw hat, and I could tell he had a foreign accent. But as I talked with him more something else stood out; he was a well-educated man. Very well-spoken (his accent was not heavy), friendly, intelligent. Not your typical seller at a country flea-market.
    And what’s more, he was seemingly quite happy.

    My curiosity grew as we continued chatting and finally I asked him where he was from originally. Answer: Pakistan.
    I bought the pair of nail-clippers and strolled away. Then, as I thought about it some more, I came back to buy more stuff I didn’t need because I wanted to help this guy out a bit. I tried paying some extra but he wouldn’t have any of that, he threw in some extra stuff for me. Maybe he could tell I was making a charity buy.

    There’s not a big payoff to this story. No big Islam angle either. But this guy was so intelligent, and so seemingly out-of-place in that setting, so friendly, and so capable, it just really took me aback. I wondered how he ended up there when he was so obviously capable of so much more.

    I might have found the answer to my question when at the end of our pleasant encounter his partner came around the van and joined us. I thought he was selling alone. Hmmm, so he’s travelling around with a male partner…. As I thought about it more, in retrospect, I think maybe they were a “couple” and this life of selling trinkets and travelling around in the U.S. allowed them the freedom to be who they were without repercussions. When I asked him if he was getting along ok he did say that he was doing ok. He added, perhaps tellingly, that in Pakistan everyone was into everyone else’s business and he disliked that. He said that in the U.S. yes he was poor but he was also free and nobody bothered him and he valued that a lot. I didn’t bother him either. Just a very nice conversation and we went out own ways.

  89. alexonhere Says:

    For my other scintillating anecdote 😉 I will describe how my wife and I overcame our religious differences and joined together in semi-holy matrimony.

    As before, I am not religious. My wife however is Catholic.
    As we got to know each other religion was never an issue between us. Our shared interest in music was certainly a binder and there was also that intangible attraction and chemistry which drew us closer together. But even so we ‘courted’ for three years before getting married even though both of us were much older than most first time married couples (me almost 40, she 35).

    She was very Catholic. She went to church regularly. She wanted to be married in the church. She wanted a Priest to preside. Her family did not reject me.

    I was not religious. I never went to church growing up. As an adult I only went to church for weddings and funerals (and it had been many years since either). I was ok marrying in her church. My family did not reject her.

    I suppose all kinds of complications could have ensued but they didn’t. The church required that we undergo some pre-marriage religious counseling type thing to make sure we understood all the responsibilities. We did that and it wasn’t intrusive or burdensome. We also had to meet with the Priest and discuss what we were undertaking and how things would work. That too went well. The Priest and I got along real well. He was a well-educated and friendly man.

    Everything seemed to be going well. Love seemed to be winning out. Although she was Catholic, and I a default atheist, there didn’t seem to be any incompatibilities. I wasn’t hostile to religion in general, or Catholicism in particular, and she wasn’t hostile to my lack of faith. We respected each other and neither of us felt our path to be the superior way.

    And guess what? That’s the way it worked out. We’ve now been happily married for six years, have 3 children, and have never, not once, had a single conflict about religion or faith or lack thereof. Not once has any issue arisen between us or between our families. Nor will it. Everyone gets along swimmingly. My mother-in-law is one of my best friends (she is very religious) and my wife is adored by my family. I do go to church with my wife on Christmas and Easter though it’s my choice and nothing she pushes for. I don’t participate, just attend with her. Our children are or will be baptised and I’m fine with that. In fact I like it.

    If all this is too rosy a picture, rest assured that my wife and I do get in arguments as do most all married couples, but it’s never over religion.

    Oh and I almost forgot to add, we’re an interracial couple too. It’s even less of an issue than the religion thing was/is,
    i.e. no issue at all. Never was and never will be.

    Time to go to bed. Bye for now.

  90. awake Says:

    eagle,

    Thanks. There is a duplicate posting of mine. Feel free to delete one.

  91. snatchmaker Says:

    The modern West has had a thriving, industrious culture of self-criticism for at least the past 200 years, going back to the late 18th century Enlightenment. This culture of self-criticism has increased and become stronger with each passing generation, up to the present. It has thrived in Academe, the news media, popular culture, the arts, among ordinary people (finding a special venue of expression on the Internet in the last approximately ten years), and in politics.

    This self-criticism has ranged all over the map — from subtle and sophisticated, to satire, ridicule, mockery, to public protests, to profound examinations of the roots of various social, political and psychological “diseases” which the West is supposed to suffer from. Over the course of the past two centuries, this self-criticism has increased in depth and strength throughout the mainstream, while authoritative oppression & punishments of it have decreased.

    In the Muslim world, a culture of self-criticism has been, and remains, stunted, impoverished, and suppressed both officially and unofficially — often violently.

    It is in light of this that I found so amazing these words written by a Saudi prince (quoted below). Of course, we need to hear these same kinds of words from hundreds of thousands of Muslims throughout the globe — not merely from one lone Muslim writing in an English-language publication published in England. This example, then, illustrates what needs to grow in the Muslim world, and serves as an unfortunate exception to the rule, not as any sign of hope that Islamic sociopolitical culture is in fact progressing as it should.

    “We have bred monsters. We alone are responsible for it. I have written as much before my personal tragedy and will continue to do so for as long as it takes. We are the problem and not America or the penguins of the North Pole or those who live in caves in Afghanistan. We are it, and those who cannot see this are the ones to blame. . . may the Americans add Talal to their list of loved ones lost to the same indiscriminate madness that took 3,000 on a certain day in September.”

    — Dr. Muhammad Talal Al-Rasheed, columnist for the English language daily The Saudi Gazette, in an article titled ” Senseless Violence, Senseless Death”, written in November of 2003, in reaction to the murder of a relative of his, Saudi Prince Talal Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Rasheed, murdered along with nine other people by Salafi Muslims while he was vacationing in Algeria.

  92. cerebate Says:

    awake
    Quite a change from our initial exchanges :). Perhaps we do not differ so much after all.

    “Hope the match went well.”
    2 years and counting!. As such she and I respect each others views even if we dont agree and that is sufficient to keep religious differences from being a problem.

    “critical commmentary on the texts coupled with the criticism of those Muslims who speak about their ideology in a jihadist mindset, deserve our collective scorn. ”
    Oh i agree totally. In robert’s video there is this Anjem Chaudhary character. It would be funny if it wasnt so bloody tragic to hear him say “No non muslim is innocent”.

    “I agree with you that there is little we, as non-Muslims can do to change this”
    Directly , no, not much we can do.Indirectly perhaps. Like I said in India, poverty and unemployment are causes that add to the jihadist problem, it’s easy to brainwash people who have very little to lose. Add to this the politicians who take advantage of any difference for political gain. I may not be able to say anything about the Quran that would convince anyone but we could do something about poverty, unemployment, population control.It wont end violent jihadists, but it might reduce it.

    In case of America, I wish you’ll would use the enormous resources you’ll have to find an alternative to fossil fuel instead of wasting the resources fighting wars with iraq etc. It would cut into the terrorist funding. (The other is war should be a last resort, and i have a high enough opinion of human intellect that i believe that we should never have to come to the last resort).

    “I judge individuals on their own merits of words and actions. I would hope to be treated in kind.”
    Ok. Apologies for the regular insults.

    “But he remains intrepid nonetheless, to inform the masses to the reality of the Islamic expansion and dominanace. ”
    I think most people who would browse the internet are already aware of the problem (or would ignore it willfully)
    Again one of the major problems I have is that I have rarely seen any meaningful discussions on JW, and Robert doesn’t seem to or want to address this. (I refer specifically to the comments, not the articles). he has an audience and he should use it , in my opinion.

    “He is a noble man for his efforts in educating us infidels to the insipid plan of the jihadists, those who employ other tactics besides overt violence. ”
    Ill make a no comment on this for now. Again a problem for me is that he think’s (or atleast portrays) that Violent Jihadists are caused due to one reason only – Islam. It is the ‘only’ that i have a problem with.

    “Without Robert Spencer I would not be here, genuinely seeking a solution to this dilemna.”
    Id give eagle the credit for that :).

    “Some people say it is boredom and an insignifigant life. Some say poverty, with the exception of the recent London and Scotland jihadists all being DOCTORS.”
    Yep. I found the boredom reason laughable, but poverty is a valid cause but not the only cause.It takes a combination of causes, and yes religion is also one of them.
    But think about the atmosphere they have to have been raised in , for them to believe that violence against innocents is acceptable.

    “Some say it is US imperialism, Zionism or even plain old Islamophobia that causes Jihad…nonsense.”
    Well , I’d say that for someone to say I bombed innocents because of US imperialism is nonsense ofcourse. But if America hadnt attacked Iraq (Admittedly ruled by a despotic dictator), would there have been lesser number of violent jihadists? I think so. And it didnt make America one bit safer.

    “refuse to admit to the obvious correlation of Islamic terrorism and Islam. ”
    Correlation yes. Causal is the point we probably disagree on :).

  93. cerebate Says:

    alexonhere
    Good to hear. To be sure My fiancee and I dont have any religious problems most of the time.
    Its quite funny, if I say nothing , she is quite happy to criticise the current pope undoing the work of the previous pope and various other illogicalities in the way her religion is currently practiced. But if I(the non catholic) criticise some catholic practice, it’s a surefire way to spend the rest of the day apologising for my insensitive and nonsensical views.

  94. cerebate Says:

    “In the Muslim world, a culture of self-criticism has been, and remains, stunted, impoverished, and suppressed both officially and unofficially — often violently”
    This is probably true in the current day(there are notabe exceptions). However it wasn’t always this way and there’s no reason why it should continue to be so. I cant remember the internet links , but there are a lot of old Islamic philosopher’s who did debate and argue and criticise. Virtually absent in the current day, but it does serve to highlight that nothing in Islam actually prevents self evaluation if the people have the will.

  95. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    No we do not.

    America has major issues, most of what you stated, but as an American, I will never bad-mouth the greatest country in the world, my country. No administration can offset that belief in my mind.

    We can disagree on the degree of Islamic textual teachings and the existence of Islamic terrorism as a direct correlation, by degree. I have no problem with that, but to deny it absolutely and outright in my estimation, is nothing short of disingenuous.

    I am glad to hear about your personal life a bit. Keep that fiancee’ near and dear to you, for if you are a typical “man” like me, you cannot take women for granted forever, especially good ones in looks and spirit. 🙂

    I am not yet 40 years old, but am married with three smalls (2 boys and my little angel). Kids rock. They are by far the BEST thing in my life, and partially the reason why I waste my late night hours with my beliefs…for their future..free..alive..and happy.

    Cerebate as a potential ally here and at JW? Well, I must admit myself, it seems a bit surreal, but I never burn potential bridges beyond repair.

    In summation, I have to give Robert the hat tip, in reference to Islam, I mean, he compelled me to read the Qur’an. No small feat, in my estimation.

    Regards,

    awake

  96. cerebate Says:

    “No administration can offset that belief in my mind.”
    Agreed.

    ” but to deny it absolutely ”
    Never did that. Like you said its probably the degree (abnd other motivations that we disagree on.

    “Cerebate as a potential ally here and at JW”
    Unthinkable!. anyway , its always issue based with me, I might disagree vehemently with you on one thing and agree just as vehemently on another.

    “Kids rock. They are by far the BEST thing in my life”
    No kids for me yet, but I strongly agree with these sentiments!

  97. Sukran Says:

    “What is the purpose in spewing hate?? What is the purpose in trying to convince moderate Muslims that they are wrong?? What would you think if I started writing in an attempt to convince Muslims that they aren’t Muslim unless they are killing people?? Seriously, how stupid is that?? We don’t have enough problems with terrorists that you want to create a few more?? Does that make sense to anybody??”

    I think they have strong confident that they can vaporize the 1,504,829,038 Muslims in one night. 🙂
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

    It is hopeful to see some smart Christians in here.
    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/

  98. snatchmaker Says:

    Contrary to the unsubstantiated caricatures of Robert Spencer’s agenda, here are two good quotes of his that demonstrate what he is doing in an overarching sense:

    1) “D’Souza claims that criticism of Islam breeds jihadists. But if peaceful Muslims really abhor jihadism, they should have no reason to object to critical presentations of the elements of Islam that foster jihadism. In fact, they should welcome them. You can’t reform what you won’t admit needs reforming. If identifying the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify their actions will be enough to drive peaceful Muslims into the arms of the jihadists, then how committed could they really have been to peace and moderation in the first place? Pretending that the jihadists aren’t using Islamic teachings in this way will do nothing to stop them from doing so.”

    2) Re: this quote by Abu Qatada, a Muslim cleric linked to Al-Qaeda — “I am astonished by President Bush when he claims there is nothing in the Koran that justifies jihad violence in the name of Islam” — Spencer goes on to write:

    “But of course, that’s the charge: that people like me and the others I named above, and still others also, “endorse” the “Al-Qaeda version of Islam” when we point out that there is little or nothing that is unorthodox about that “version” from the standpoint of traditional Islam. The whole world takes for granted the idea that the Islamic world rejects contemporary jihadism on Islamic grounds, and various non-Muslim analysts have come up with various explanations of how exactly it deviates from traditional Islam — genuine jihad can only be called by state authority, etc. (That one ignores the fact that the jihadists today present their activities as entirely defensive, and according to traditional Islamic law defensive jihad doesn’t need anyone to call it to make it obligatory on all Muslims.)

    “Meanwhile, however, the jihadists continue to recruit peaceful Muslims by presenting their “version” of Islam as the genuine article, the pure thing, and the soothing explanations that comfort so many in the West don’t seem to have any power to blunt the force of this recruitment.
    What the learned analysts don’t realize is that many Muslims believe Abu Qatada when he says things like this. Peaceful moderates have yet to come up with a refutation of claims like this that is convincing to Muslims on Islamic grounds. It is not endorsing their perspective to point this out. It is just stating a fact.

    “And when CAIR and MPAC and the rest focus their ire on me and others like me instead of on Abu Qatada, they are doing nothing — nothing — to impede his efforts.”

    It would be nice if critics of Spencer kept these overall points of his in mind when they are claiming to lock horns with him. Instead, they erect a straw man that they cannot substantiate, then waste their, and our, time tilting at it.

  99. awake Says:

    Sukran,

    You wrote:
    “What is the purpose in spewing hate??”
    “What is the purpose in trying to convince moderate Muslims that they are wrong??”

    Your overuse of the word hate and in improper context grows quite tiresome.

    No one is trying to convince “moderate” muslims that they arer wrong. I am just trying to define what a “moderate” Muslim is.

    In your estimation, what is a moderate Muslim and how do they arrive at their particular beliefs?

  100. Eagle Says:

    awake,

    Sukran, was quoting from the post.

  101. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    Its so nice to see you answering questions raised to you, by essentially repeating what you have said and ignoring the question.
    You have summarised Robert’s stance as
    a. Islam need reform and you cant reform something until you admit it needs reform.
    To which I have asked and you havent given any coherent answer to is – How?(Nor to my knowledge has Robert if there are links , please share. Note that something like his five point plan has what Muslim’s should do , not what reformations have to be done to Islam). If your conclusion is that it is the violent jihadists that we need to do something about (including finding out ways how to prevent or reduce their creation) that isnt the same as reforming Islam. e.g. what Emperor Constantine did could be considered ‘reformation’

  102. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate:

    I wrote:

    ” the absolute truth of what defines a “true Muslim” is not relevant to this discussion we are having; but the definition of the “true Muslim” as that definition is defended and as it motivates behaviors in the Muslim world is relevant to this discussion – rather centrally relevant.”

    You responded:

    “Umm ..ok..if you insist(scratches head in puzzlement).
    Im confused as to what your position is
    True Muslim – relevant/irrelevant?
    True Islam – relevant/irrelevant?
    Im happy to go with irrelevant for both.”

    You apparently did not read the writing of mine that you were responding to — particularly the part where I referred to “the definition of the “true Muslim” as that definition is defended [by Muslims, of course] and as it motivates behaviors in the Muslim world…”

    So once again, I repeat: what is a “true Muslim” and what is “true Islam” in terms of absolute truth is irrelevant; but what is a “true Muslim” and what is “true Islam” in terms of what Muslims themselves believe — that is relevant.

    I wrote:

    “This is a simplistic way of understanding the role of religious holy texts ”

    You responded:

    “aha , but is it wrong? If so why?”

    It would be wrong if it tends to exclude the religious motivation in favor of non-religious motivations. When 3,000 Muslims riot in India because one policeman dropped one Koran, it’s a safe bet that religious fanaticism is massively motivating those thousands. Or the Nigerian Muslims that rioted, burned Christian churches, businesses and homes, and murdered at least 9 people — because somebody had drawn a cartoon of Mohammed. Does that mean other factors besides religious fanaticism are not also at play in these kinds of displays of mass insanity? No. But you seem to think that if we admit the importance of religious fanaticism for Muslim behaviors such as these, then suddenly we can’t also admit other factors. I’m perfectly willing to admit several different factors, including Islamic fanaticism. Why aren’t you?

    Once we admit that factor (along with others), we can then explore what is wrong with Islam, and with the cultures that are formed in Islamic ways, that tends too often to nourish such bouts of extremism, intolerance, hatred, jingoism, etc. ( as well as less flagrant examples of Islamic injustice, such as sentencing homosexuals to jail time for up to 21 years in so-called “moderate” Malaysia).

    I wrote:

    “You, et al. here, seem to think only in Either/Or and Black/White terms about this problem: EITHER it is a problem that consigns all 1.2 billion Muslims to condemnation …. OR, there is no problem of Islam and the vast majority of Muslims are harmless nice friendly people”

    You responded:

    “Ha ha ha. People like you are in love with the strawman. You use it at every opportunity!.”

    I wasn’t necessarily employing a straw man; I was pointing out that I thought you were employing a straw man. I could be wrong, and might be persuaded so if you could defend your position as not being a straw man (where the “Either” of the “Either/Or” is the straw man in question)

    You wrote: “Yes the vast majority of muslims are harmless(do the math).”

    The vast majority are not currently, actively doing harm. In that sense, they are, strictly speaking, harmless. That’s different from the question of just how many of that vast majority are more or less passively enabling a trans-national ideological system that in turn nourishes varieties of injustice as well as terrorism (if a good number of them are not, in fact, enthusiastic supporters of same). The simplex formula “the vast majority of muslims are harmless” also obscures our vexing problem of being unable to tell the difference between those Muslims who seem harmless from those that in fact have been found out to either participate in terrorist plots or support them, not to mention the temporal and geographical unpredictability of those plots and their horrific possibilities given the mass-murderous and religiously suicidal fanaticism motivating them.

    You wrote: “Violent muslims and Jihadists are a problem. You believe the major (perhaps only) cause of violent muslims and jihadists is Islam. I dont.”

    I’ve already said that Islam need not be “the major” cause — only “a major” cause, for this global problem to be treated with a degree of urgency and gravity that you do not come close to demonstrating (and in fact seem to be undercutting at every turn you can).

    You wrote: “We agree They need to be stopped.”

    Well, we might agree with that vague pronouncement, but we aren’t even close to agreeing on who “They” are. As long as you keep cordonning off the vast majority of Muslims and Islam itself from all substantive criticism, you will be myopic to the pipeline running fresh jihadist waters through various holes in that great wall you put around Islam, jihadist currents that nourish innumerable and globally disparate Muslims on the other side of that protective theoretical wall with traditionally resonant inspiration based in the supremacist intolerance of the Islamic heritage.

    You wrote: “The solutions offered by Jihadwatch regulars seem to be one that will lead to conflict. In conflict people will side with their country(perhaps religion if it portrayed in that manner) no matter what they believe about the actual war. War is never a solution, only a bigger problem.”

    We’re back to the ‘angry bees-nest’ theory, which you keep apparently slip-sliding around: first you seem to imply that poking at Muslims will get even the peaceful ones to respond in violent ways as well as in ways that enable if not support their violent co-religionists; then you say, ‘No, I wasn’t saying that at all’. Then you make statements like the above which brings back the notion that if we take measures to defend ourselves – including bringing substantive criticisms of Islamic culture out into the light – will “lead us into conflict”. When someone points out that 911 happened before Bush did anything to provoke Muslims, you will likely claim that 911 must have been in understandable response to what must have been prior provocations and “meddling” by the USA in the Muslim world. This kind of reflexive apologism for Islamic extremism always seem weighted against our favor: no matter what atrocities Muslims around the world commit, it must be an understandable response to some more or less legitimate “grievance” they have against the West. What was the legitimate grievance which the Islamic dynasty of the Maghreb (North Africa) had against the fledgling USA in the late 18th century, when they were attacking our (and European) merchants ships, kidnapping our crews, killing and/or enslaving them? The Muslim ambassador whom Thomas Jefferson met in London explained why they were attacking Infidel ships, stealing their booty and enslaving the crews. I shall render the account in the 1st person and present tense (it was recorded in the 3rd person and past tense in the original) to make clearer what was being said:

    “The Americans asked Adja why his government was hostile to American ships, even though there had been no provocation.”

    The Muslim ambassador’s response:

    …It is founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it is written in our Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged our authority are sinners, that it is our right and duty to make war upon them [the Infidels] wherever they could be found [see Koran 4:89 and 9:5], and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle [see Koran 9:111] is sure to go to Paradise.

    There are no “grievances”. Or, when there happen to be attendant grievances, they are usually adjunct problems, exploited by the Muslims (at least those who know their Islam) in the furtherance of the greater, deeper objective: to spread the Lebensraum of Islam by hook or by crook, until the whole world is as it should be, under the domination of the only absolute truth there is, that transmitted to Mohammed by Allah.

    You wrote: “My take – A lot of asian’s believe settling in a foreign country is a sign of their success of having made it. However they feel guilty too and keep trying to instill their culture down their childrens throats as compensation. The child never fits in with a culture that doesnt exist and with a western culture that he has never been exposed too. The end result , they hang around with people who are exactly like them. their folks who have probably settled for a small low paying job , now find that western education is quite expensive and cant really school their children well, having not much western education themselves. End result a lot of unemployment. Add this to an atmosphere of mistrust and racial slurs of ‘Paki’ (by mostly unemployed low waged white supremacists, poked and prodded by a set of politicians trying to acquire a niche bank of votes. They are already frustrated by their jobs going to the brown skinned and chinese, their lower wage jobs taking by the slavic immigrants). Some of them see their religion as their identity, because they have never been allowed to feel british by either their parents or by the british themselves. They have no idea about their own country so what remains is religion.Now add to this a harsh criticism or Islam/Quran. Or an incident where a muslim girl is pestered by a white(or vice versa). Or a brawl outside a bar which might involve a muslim and a white.(None of these are justifications).”

    Show me one incident against Muslims as gruesome and horrific as the racist torture and murder of Donald Kriss. Then, to top off that gruesome incident, a Muslim Parliament Member (Mohammed Sarwar) who tried to do the right thing – traveling to Pakistan to use his connections to hunt down the fugitive murderers and bring them back to justice – received so many death threats from Muslims to himself and his family that he decided to leave office:
    They [certain Muslims] unleashed a campaign of abuse that featured death threats by torture not only against him but also against his children and grandchildren. This is how Mohammad Sarwar described this experience in an interview earlier this year:
    “Life is not the same, to be honest with you, since I brought them [the three murderers] back. I was subjected to threats. I was told they wanted to punish my family and make a horrible example of my son – they would do to him what they did to Kriss Donald. I received threats to my life, to murder my sons, to murder my grandchildren.”
    Even though he has been reluctant to admit it publicly, his associates revealed that it was fear of reprisals that made him decide not to seek re-election. This would make Mohammad Sarwar the first British Member of Parliament in modern history to be forced out of office by intimidation.

    You wrote: “You do not seem to get the simple fact that for the moderate muslims they practice true Islam and the jihadists dont. for the jihadists they believe the same.”

    Again, many of those harmless Muslims may claim that, but they are not articulating and defending that position through recourse to Islamic texts and traditions. I need to see a large number of moderate Muslims doing this; I need to see evidence that their moderate arguments enjoy some degree of noticeable traction in the Muslim world. Otherwise, it is just empty claims, or – at best – a de facto situation of passive moderation with no Islamic legs to stand on, easily countered when the jihadists recruit new members and/or are buoyed up by an amorphous sea of more or less passive enablement if not support for their version.

    You wrote: “You believe Islam is violent , so you agree with the jihadist interpretation and you point to the moderates and say “you there, quasi-muslim!” You believe they dont have an Islamic leg to stand on , the moderates believe that they do.”

    I will change my mind about this when I see moderate Muslims present Islamic counter-arguments and when those arguments show signs of gaining broad traction in the Muslim world. It would be nice to see one – just one – angry mass demonstration against fellow Muslims who have tortured and murdered someone, or who have put out a death fatwa on an artist, or who have burned buildings and homes down because of a dropped Koran or the accidental spray of urine on a Koran or because some journalist innocently speculated that Mohammed would have been attracted to Miss Universe, etc.

    You wrote: “The reason I ask how would you reform islam , is because Robert Spencer and the JW folks like to keep throwing this up , Islam/Quran is the cause, reform Islam/Quran. You’ll haven’t yet been able to answer – How?”

    If Spencer is actually – and not merely rhetorically – calling on Muslims to reform Islam, then I disagree with him. I don’t think Islam as it stands – the texts and traditions which solidly enshrine violent supremacist expansionism as well as indefinite injustices based upon the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of everyone else — can be reformed. And I don’t think the tack that most, it seems, apparently moderate or at least harmless Muslims have been pursuing in the past 100 years or so is viable as a long-term solution. That tack has been essentially a kind of ongoing state of passive denial of what Islam really means, and this state of passive denial was facilitated sociopolitically by the global dominance of the West, where many Muslims had no choice but to hunker down – coupled, of course, with the fact that many Muslim tyrants chose to make various deals with the dominant Western powers whereby they agreed to “keep a lid” on the Islamic passions of their populations, which in turn generated a cycle where the proponents of Islamic purity could point to their own political leaders (and even some clerics allied to those leaders) as “traitors” and colluders with the Infidels, fomenting attacks on those leaders and any Muslims they deemed to be part of that corruption – in its turn generating more and more repression by the leaders (including the official, truly brutal tactics of physical torture employed casually by Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Turkey, etc.). Under the various regimes that imposed (in varying degrees & flavors of brutality) quasi-Islamic societies, and in the larger context of the overwhelming global superiority of the West all around them, many Muslims who were not of an obsessive purist bent found a de facto breathing space for moderation in Islamic terms – de facto, but apparently not Islamically de jure. Now that the obsessive purists are rejoining and reviving their perfectly traditional and textually legitimate purism around the world, and now that more and more cracks (whether real or imagined) are being seen in the Great Satan of the New Roman Empire (America), that de facto modus vivendi of the more or less passive Muslims of the 20th century is not, it seems, a sufficient alternative: i.e., living in a more or less passive state of denial works for a while – particularly when it is protected by a kind of “bubble” made possible by the West –, but will not be a long-term solution under the increasing pressures of the spread of Islamic revival around the world. If a sufficient number of Muslims could inspire an actual mass movement of not reformation but a transformation of Islam, the Koran, Mohammed and the Sunna (all need to be transformed, not just one of them), then there might be an Islamic way – that is also mostly peaceful — out of this epochal problem. Otherwise, we will simply have the ongoing problem of increasing, unpredictable, globally disparate, and horrific bouts of violence coupled with more and more intolerant demands for “tolerance” and sociopolitico-cultural adjustments by us to accomodate their institutional and cultural injustices (while they continue to refuse reciprocity in their lands). I.e., unlike Spencer (apparently), I don’t see the solution to this problem in textual dialogic engagement with Muslims, but rather in deconstructing our own Politically Correct Multi-culturalist paradigm whereby we continually disable ourselves from protecting ourselves against an Islamically motivated danger. And this, indeed, will not be a “solution” anyway: it will only be an indefinite holding pattern of self-defense whose highest ambition will be at best simply to manage and ameliorate the problem. I don’t see this problem going away in the next century or two. But I do see the possibility that the West will at least wake up to be able to take rational measures of self-defense in the coming decades. These rational measures, based upon a deconstruction of the PC MC paradigm, however, will likely not come about until, tragically, the West in various locations has incurred several more, and probably much more horrific, attacks than it has heretofore.

    [Possibly to be continued re: your other comments]

  103. snatchmaker Says:

    Woops — I said I was going to render the Muslim ambassador’s response to Thomas Jefferson in the 1st person, but I missed one — see the correction in brackets below:

    The Muslim ambassador’s response:

    “…It is founded on the Laws of their [should read “our”] Prophet, that it is written in our Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged our authority are sinners, that it is our right and duty to make war upon them [the Infidels] wherever they could be found [see Koran 4:89 and 9:5], and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle [see Koran 9:111] is sure to go to Paradise.”

  104. in2thefray Says:

    I’m not in the mood for cut/paste /blockquote so I’m hoping the various agents can recognize the who’s who’s.
    1.Islamists do benefit from imperialism and dictatorships that have trod on the little people. Islamism shouldn’t be viewed any different than the other “isms” of history in that regard.Remember the Nazis were essentially a bunch of punks that met in a bar who used the Depression and humiliation post WWI to get going.
    2. The Quran can be used to go verse for verse pro-con. This is an inescapable truth. In some corners there are those that think strict Muslims not moderates may be best suited for Islamic reform. The belief being strict adherence to the Quran as opposed to fatwas and the 4 (5 if you count Shia) schools of law etc. The thinking to beat a dead horse is that laws and fatwas are not directly divine in nature and are subject to critique and change.
    3. Snatchmaker: The PC multiculturalism angle is very true. This could also be applied to many domestic issues of Western countries. I’ d ask you though. Do you view the PC issue as caused by Muslims/Islam ?
    4. Closing thought. After 104 comments is there a closing in the gap of the dialog or am I imagining that ? Also isn’t the post really more about Hate between peoples not necessarily Mr. Spencer ?

  105. snatchmaker Says:

    Poverty causes jihadism?

    Wealthy Syrians head to Iraq for jihad

    Spencer’s wry commentary:

    “Wait a minute. Isn’t poverty supposed to cause terrorism?

    “Of course, over the years we have presented here study after study showing that jihad terrorists are generally better educated and more affluent than their peers. Their motivations are religious and ideological. But no one wants to face the implications of that, so they ignore the data and indulge instead and fantasy-based analysis and fantasy-based policymaking. Unfortunately for those analysts and policymakers, reality always wins out in the end.”

    The story:

    “Suicide bombers head to Iraq from Damascus,” by Hala Jaber and Ali Rifat in the TimesOnline (thanks to all who sent this in):

    IN a small flat in Damascus, a young man in jeans and T-shirt draws frequently on a Gauloises cigarette as he describes how he dressed his brother in a suicide belt and watched him blow up some American soldiers at a drinks stall in Iraq.

    The young man calls himself Ahmed. He is 23 and he has a degree in chemistry. He knows all about explosives.

    Last year, he says coolly, he took 15kg of TNT, packed it into pouches with some nails and strapped the bomb to his 19-year-old brother’s waist….

    Ahmed had borrowed a drinks stall used by American convoys on the road that winds north from Baghdad past Saddam Hussein’s home town of Tikrit. His brother was instructed to grab some bottles of cola in his free hand and head for a group of soldiers taking a break from their journey.

    “Go sell them some Pepsi,” Ahmed told him gently. “We will meet in heaven, you and I, and that’s a promise.”

    Ahmed says his brother kissed him, turned and walked away without a moment’s hesitation.

    Did he not long to call his brother back, I ask? The question brings tears to his eyes.

    “He had a smile on his face,” Ahmed replies. “He knew he was crossing to a better place where he would meet his maker as a martyr.”

  106. snatchmaker Says:

    That previous story I quoted above, continued:

    “So who are these bombers and why do they do it? How are they organised?

    We tracked down three bombers in our search for answers. The first interviews of their kind with men passing through Syria on their way to die in Iraq, they confounded expectations.

    These were no psychopathic loners from the ghetto, but articulate, middle-class men in their twenties and early thirties who had come from good homes and gone to university. One was a newly married accountant.

    Yet all had reached the chilling conclusion that killing “sinners” would transport them to paradise.

  107. snatchmaker Says:

    in2thefray:

    “I’ d ask you though. Do you view the PC issue as caused by Muslims/Islam ?”

    No — the way I see it, PC is a larger, nebulous cultural phenomenon than the Problem of Islam issue. PC encompasses many things that have nothing to do with Islam. There is one particular area of PC where I see the Problem of Islam being involved — and that is where PC has over the past 60 years developed a double attitude (each one complementing the other):

    1) an excessive self-criticism of the West by Westerners (shame and guilt about our history which bleeds over into continuing harping about our present evils, so much so that our astounding progress is ignored, if not ridiculed)

    2) excessive romanticization of non-Western cultures, viewing them as forever precious children or noble savages always the victim, always in need of our help, always “oppressed” by us, and as peoples who can never do any wrong and should never take ethical responsibility for the corruption, chaos and general evils they happen to do.

    With the above twin points which have become one of the many Pillars of PC, Islam comes along onto the radar screen of the West (actually, Islam used to be on the West’s radar, but the West forgot about Islam by 100 years ago, since Islam had sunk so low into global insignificance while the West had ascended so spectacularly globally. By 100 years ago, Islam became one more quaint, exotic Third World “culture” among others, and their militaristic ideology of imperialistic supremacism which had harrassed and terrorized and subjugated millions over the centuries before, was more or less forgotten by most in the West. So when Islam re-entered the West’s radar, in the meantime, that aforementioned Pillar of PC had been developed in the West, and Islam, as a Third World “culture”, fits right in: no matter what bad things Muslims do, no matter what bad features & qualities Islam has, they can do no wrong, because it’s Third World — and any wrongs they seem to do and their culture seems to enshrine, must be caused by our own Western evils, anyway — we must somehow be “oppressing” them and “meddling” in their precious wonderfully ethnic multi-cultural societies — yes, that’s always the cause of Muslim injustices, corruptions, socio-politico-economic retardation, and outright evils: it must somehow be the West’s fault, never the fault of Muslims and their Islamic culture.

    That’s how the PC Multi-Culturalist paradigm, developed as a broader way of viewing the relation between the West and the Third World, assimilates the data of Islam that has re-entered the West’s radar screen beginning in the last half of the 20th century.

  108. in2thefray Says:

    I agree with the two points you make. My extension would be in keeping with the “Hate” thing. Many in the West hate Muslims following local political capitulations. My point being the capitulations are on us not them and we should look inward first. Europe is straddled with the issues it has due to the multicultural position it took. One, forced isolation of Muslims in some cases and two, allowed isolation secondary to not encouraging assimilation.

  109. cerebate Says:

    “Poverty causes jihadism? Wealthy Syrians head to Iraq for jihad”
    “Spencer’s wry commentary:“Wait a minute. Isn’t poverty supposed to cause terrorism?”

    It isnt wry, it set’s up a strawman. There is no assertion that poverty is the only cause of jihadism or that is necessary or sufficient.
    It is however one of the causes that can be combined with others.

  110. cerebate Says:

    “in terms of what Muslims themselves believe ”
    And you would know this – how? More importantly are the beliefs sufficiently similar to warrant a generic “this is what muslims themselves believe”. Again no one here disputes that some jihadists do believe that what they do is for islam, justified by islam and prescribed by Islam.

    “When 3,000 Muslims riot in India because one policeman dropped one Koran”
    Trust me, you have no Idea why people in india riot. The last few causes for violent clashes that i can remember (besides the ever existent hindu muslim riots)
    a. The Government declares in an affidavit that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of a major hindu god
    b. The statue of a leader of backward classes is garlanded with chappals.
    c. A hindu fundamentalist leader is asked to appear in court
    d. India wins a cricket world cup – hindu muslim riots ?!?
    e. An organisations finds an Orkut community which insults it ‘s native king
    f. Valentines day is against Indian ‘culture’ – time to stone shops.
    Decide for yourself the varied causes.
    Again I have no problems agreeing that in some case religious Islamic fanatiscism is the cause. it however isnt the only cause and is normally combined with others.

    “Once we admit that factor (along with others), we can then explore what is wrong with Islam”
    This is probably the point we mostly disagree with. i’d say we need to explore what is wrong with the violent muslims / what is different. Its not that Islam isnt a factor, its that we as outsiders can do very little about it, hence a waste of time, hence irrelevant.

    “That’s different from the question of just how many of that vast majority are more or less passively enabling a trans-national ideological system ”
    Agreed. They need to do something about it.

    “I’ve already said that Islam need not be “the major” cause — only “a major” cause”
    Alright then, what are the other major causes. If only for me to see how sincere you are.

    “We’re back to the ‘angry bees-nest’ theory”
    Nah this is based on the solutions offered by JW members. Along the lines of “we prefer to fight” – “ban all muslim immigration to America” etc. If you have a solution please offer it.

    “Bush did anything to provoke Muslims”
    You should read up as to who armed and trained the Taliban and Mr Bin Laden during the Soviet invasion. This isnt a justification ofcourse. I do not apologise for any muslims/islam, you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with what you say must be a muslim apologist.

    “I don’t think Islam as it stands … …can be reformed”
    Then isnt it a waste of time to bother about it being a cause (since nothing can be done) and time to focus on things that can be changed isn’t it?

    ” But I do see the possibility that the West will at least wake up to be able to take rational measures of self-defense in the coming decades”
    And offense being the best form of defense right? And preemptively strike countries like Iraq / Iran right? And you wonder why I say that almost solutions offered by JW fans are of the form us v/s them.
    Do you believe that for America
    a. Find an alternative to fossil fuel
    b. Stop supporting fundamentalist regimes even if they are your closest allies
    c. Stop interfering and picking up wars with nations, be neutral as far as possible, be helpful if requested.
    would reduce the jihadist problem?, and this is something we can do , not something that we have to rely on other’s to do.

  111. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    The solutions to “a major” problem in today’s world, Islamic jihad, is not the bane or the burden of the West, especially not JW as a community. Robert offers his 5-part plan, to which previously, you had no disagreement with.

    Robert simply identifies the problem(or a part thereof), a problem which to date, no moderate Muslim has acknowledged. How can a “moderate” Muslim correct a problem in their own ideological community, if they can neither identify nor acknowledge the problem??

    Cerebate, in all honesty, can you name one single “moderate” Muslim whom can identify the problem of Islamism, without going out of their way to deny any correlation to Islam?

    You yourself acknowledge the correlation, for it is obviously logical. Why is that reality so difficult for ANY Muslim to understand?

  112. cerebate Says:

    ” Islamic jihad, is not the bane or the burden of the West, especially not JW as a community”
    So your point is which of the below
    a. The west is not affected by Islamic Jihad and can therefore afford to ignore it? Or the west does not have to come up with workable solutions? or the west does not contribute to Islamic jihadism?
    b. JW as a community can keep groaning about the various injustices committed by jihadists and not offer a single viable solution. They can keep calling for Islamic Reform(and then say ‘but it can’t be reformed’) without having a single idea on how to go about this?

    Sounds like a president who wanted to oust a dictator but didnt realise he had to figure out the next step as well.
    I dont much like discussing problems without thinking of solutions.

    “one single “moderate” Muslim whom can identify the problem of Islamism, without going out of their way to deny any correlation to Islam”

    Google it. A couple of links on Eagles blogroll will give you a start. i cant name a couple of my friends for obvious reasons, but they exist all the same.

    I define correlation as when one variable varies with the other in a systematic way. You can also find correlation between Terrorism and Treatment of women, Terrorism and poverty among other variables.

  113. Sukran Says:

    It would not make any difference whether the cause is reactionist Muslims, or African tribal leaders. The problem is laying down in simplier facts and reasons:

    “Often, the U.S. offered weapons and military assistance to a repressive government with one hand while raising the other in the name of securing democracy and promoting stability. Inevitably, somewhere down the line the regime collapses, and U.S. policy-makers are left struggling to re-write their lines. Once a new government takes power, the cycle reemerges with the same old offers of U.S. military training to help “secure democracy.” Despite the astounding regularity with which the policy of arming African governments has failed, U.S. policy-makers have been unable (or unwilling) to develop effective non-military forms of engagement.”

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm

    Please also see “What Went Wrong?” at http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/what-went-wrong/

    These are the recommendations indicated for Africa, we may apply the same recommandations for Jihadist Muslims:

    “Recommendation 1 – By restricting the flow of weapons and training and increasing support for sustainable development policies, the U.S. could help create the conditions needed for peace and stability to take root.

    Recommendation 2 – All U.S. military training programs should receive congressional oversight and approval, with effective mechanisms in place for reviewing and assessing their impact on human rights and democratic consolidation in the recipient countries.

    Recommendation 3 – The Bush administration should provide increased unconditional debt forgiveness to Muslim nations and encourage them to shift resources away from military build-up and toward human development.

    Recommendation 4 – The U.S. should provide increased development assistance to Muslim countries and encourage civil-society building. ”

    etc.
    etc..
    etc…

    blah
    blah
    blah
    blah

    Nobody is going to listen anyway, right Eagle?… 🙂

  114. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate

    “Poverty causes jihadism? Wealthy Syrians head to Iraq for jihad”
    “Spencer’s wry commentary:“Wait a minute. Isn’t poverty supposed to cause terrorism?”
    “It isnt wry, it set’s up a strawman. There is no assertion that poverty is the only cause of jihadism or that is necessary or sufficient.
    It is however one of the causes that can be combined with others.”

    1) there are people who assert that poverty is the main cause of terrorism (just because you don’t do it, doesn’t mean others don’t)

    2) even if many of the people who cite poverty are not saying it’s the main cause, it is still the mainstream and prevalent view throughout the West that Islam itself is not admitted to be one of the other causes – indeed, to raise it as a major cause is to be branded as a “bigot”, a “hater”, an “Islamophobe”, even a “racist”. The mainstream prevalence throughout the West (and in places like India) to minimize — if not completely ignore — indeed, if not actively oppose — the proposition that Islam is a major cause of terrorism (and injustice) means that when people proffer other explanations, such as poverty (which is a popular one out there), those other explanations do not benefit from the inclusion of the Islam factor: at best, we get truncated surgical detachments off of Islam by various terms (“Islamism”, “radical Islamism”, “extremists”, “fundamentalists”, “Wahhabis”, “Salafis”, “al Qaeda”, etc.), all calculated (or simply an unthinking result of PC) to meticulously avoid extending any taint of blame onto Islam itself and the vast majority of Muslims. In such a situation we are in, impoverished by a mainstream and dominant PC, other explanations gain undue weight, while the Islam factor is avoided, denied, gingerly stepped around like eggshells, or actively subverted.

    “in terms of what Muslims themselves believe ”
    “And you would know this – how?”

    By what they write and say (and scream at protests, burnings of effigies, etc.).

    “More importantly are the beliefs sufficiently similar to warrant a generic “this is what muslims themselves believe”.”

    They sufficiently include the Islam factor to warrant saying that Islam is a major factor in their hatred, violence and injustice.

    “Again I have no problems agreeing that in some case religious Islamic fanatiscism is the cause. it however isnt the only cause and is normally combined with others.”

    Even if “combined” with other causes, that doesn’t let it off the hook.

    “I’ve already said that Islam need not be “the major” cause — only “a major” cause”
    “Alright then, what are the other major causes. If only for me to see how sincere you are.”

    The other causes – the usual other causes that are constantly trumpted forth, while most people throughout the West ignore the one elephant – or camel – in the room.

    “I don’t think Islam as it stands … …can be reformed”
    “Then isnt it a waste of time to bother about it being a cause (since nothing can be done) and time to focus on things that can be changed isn’t it?”

    It’s not a waste of time for the single reason that most people in the West, laboring under the delusion of the Politically Correct Multi-Culturalist paradigm by which they approach the problem of Islam, as I said above tend to ignore, if not actively subvert, the Islam factor, and also add insult to injury by vilifying as “bigots”, “Islamophobes”, and “racists”, those who raise the Islam factor. A massive education of non-Muslims about the dangerous pathology of Islam continues to be in order to undo the damage that the last 60-odd years of the mainstream dominance of PC MC has wrought.

    “Do you believe that for America
    a. Find an alternative to fossil fuel
    b. Stop supporting fundamentalist regimes even if they are your closest allies
    c. Stop interfering and picking up wars with nations, be neutral as far as possible, be helpful if requested.
    would reduce the jihadist problem?, and this is something we can do , not something that we have to rely on other’s to do.”

    Your (a) is one good arrow in the quiver of things we can do. Your (b) can be problematic at times, insofar as pulling the rug out from under certain “fundamentalist” regimes and tyrants may likely trigger the floodgates of the demagogy of a worse – and sometimes more popular — flavor of fundamentalism

  115. snatchmaker Says:

    “c. Stop interfering and picking up wars with nations, be neutral as far as possible, be helpful if requested.”

    Your (c) is also problematic, insofar as one man’s “picking wars with nations” may be another man’s just reprisal. And the “interfering” clause is even more dicey, since just about anything can be claimed — particularly by those every-hypersensitive and prickly Muslims — to be “interfering”.

    Back to another point I neglected to bring up: you concede that Islam may sometimes be a major factor, as long as we carefully buffer it with other major causes. However, not every major cause that comprises a bundle of major causes is equivalent to the others: for example, consider some more or less racist whites in the Deep South in the late 19th and early to mid-20th century, who let us say lashed out against blacks by destroying their property and homes and lynching a few etc. Now, many of these racist whites could say (and/or investigators could find out) that they had economic grievances, political grievances, legal grievances, as well as grievances about the behaviors of some blacks who had themselves committed crimes against whites. Does the “combination” of these other causes serve to soften in any way the pathology of that one of the major causes under consideration — to wit, the racist hatred on the part of the whites involved? No.

  116. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    I do not feel that problems cannot be identified or discussed without workable solutions in place. To me that seems illogical.

    Pedophelia for example, is a near epidemic in the US currently, and I also believe that problem should be identified, discussed and scrutinized as well, regardless of the current existence of a feasible solution.

    Those in the non-Muslim world who understand the relationship between Islamic terror and Islamic doctrine are a noticable minority for a variety of reasons.

    Those who acknowledge that relationship in the “moderate” Muslim community are far from dominant as well. Very few will acknowledge the relationship exists at all, although I am sure than some still do who are not Islamic apostates.

    Until that reality changes on both accounts, nothing can be expected to change. You cannot formulate a solution to a problem, the relationship between Islamic terror and Islamic doctrine, if so few accept that the problem even exists in it’s current form.

  117. snatchmaker Says:

    For an excellent overview of the problem of Islam and inter-civilizational dialogue, see this transcript of a speech given by Habib Malik, eminent Lebanese Christian and descendant of Charles Malik, a great statesman of Lebanon in the mid-20th century:

    http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:IgvBB5Tkz-oJ:www.cccu.org/docLib/20030402_Malikaddress.pdf+Habib+Malik+islam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

  118. snatchmaker Says:

    Interview in Reason magazine with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the ex-Muslim anti-Islam activist:

    Reason: The alleged lack of respect has become a perennial sore spot in relations between the West and Islam. Salman Rushdie receiving a British knighthood supposedly signified such a lack of respect, as did the Danish cartoons last year, and many other things. Do you believe this is what Muslims genuinely crave—respect?

    Hirsi Ali: It’s not about respect. It’s about power, and Islam is a political movement.

    Reason: Uniquely so?

    Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn’t been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don’t interfere with their religion, and they don’t interfere with the state. That hasn’t happened in Islam. But I don’t even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West, because in the West there’s this notion that we are invincible and that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it’s poverty, or it’s caused by colonization.

    The Western mind-set—that if we respect them, they’re going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away—is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it’s only going to get bigger.

    * * * * *

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s statement — “But I don’t even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West” (understood of course in the context of her other remarks) — is what I meant above: the problem of Islam and the exigency of learning about Islam to better understand the problem it poses with regard to international injustices and violent dangers, is a Western problem which currently is hobbled and hampered by the Politically Correct Multi-Culturalist paradigm, by which all of the blame and responsibility is Western and Islam itself, along with the vast majority of Muslims (outside of linguistic creations like “Islamism” and “radical Islam” and “extremism” and “fundamentalists” etc.) are to be forever protected from scrutiny and criticism and — where warranted — condemnation and opposition.

  119. alexonhere Says:

    Life intervened and I had to drop out for awhile.

    Re: the “tiny minority” of extremists within Islam…

    I suppose that thousands and thousands of Islamic militants murdering thousands and thousands of civilians in order to please Allah could be considered a “tiny minority” (though it constitutes a VAST number compared to all other religions today).

    But those thousands of actual killers do not exist in a vacuum. They are supported by Millions of silent and vocal sympathizers, supporters, enablers, apologists, organizers, propagandists etc. Many polls have been conducted in Islamic countries where support for even the most radical groups like al-Qaida is strikingly widespread.

    Before WWII began there was also only a “tiny minority” of Germans, in the form of Hitler’s SS and rival SA, who were committing violence against civilians in support of National Socialism (well, to be fair the Communists also had their tiny minority) But that tiny minority reflected widespread resentment, hatred, feelings of supremacy, grievance, etc. which mushroomed into a massive conflagration which consumed Europe and other parts of the world too, costing millions of lives.

    If we were having this discussion in 1939 one could make many justifications about why the German people are so angry, about how only a minority of Germans supported the extreme agenda Hitler lays out in his book “Mein Kampf” (My Jihad), about how the danger of Hitler and Naziism was being blown out of all proportion, etc. One might even say that “Yes, Hitler is bad, but that doesn’t mean that the German People are bad.” And that would be true. But the lesson to draw from what happened in WWII is happening again today within Islam. And that lesson is that even a nascent TINY MINORITY can manipulate, cajole, whip up, and infect a latent VAST MAJORITY into supporting an evil mass movement.

    One can argue that Naziism and Islam are very different and that would be true too. But there is one very striking similarity: Supremacism. The Nazis taught with great effect that the ‘Aryan’ German people were superior to others and only held back by perfidious plots (principally of Jewish construction). Islam’s militants also teach with great effect that Muslims are superior to others (an easy task since the Koran is laced with this poison) and only held back by perfidious plots (principally of Jewish construction).

    Untermensch = Subhuman

    Infidel = Subhuman

    Enslave or Kill them!

  120. alexonhere Says:

    p.s. the “tiny minority” of extremists within Communism also metastasized and led to the deaths of millions and millions of people.

  121. alexonhere Says:

    Snatchmaker, thanks for the excerpts from Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is a Profile in Courage of the highest order.

    Awake, children are incredibly precious, amen to that! I also know that I am fighting for my childrens’ future.

  122. alexonhere Says:

    cerebate, so is your fiancee’s family in opposition to your marriage? Are you going to marry anyway? In a Catholic church?

  123. cerebate Says:

    Too busy with work this week so quick answers for now
    Alexonhere
    “is your fiancee’s family in opposition to your marriage”
    her’s and mine, similar reasons
    “Are you going to marry anyway?In a Catholic church?”
    Yes and Yes and another marriage with my customs (same woman :))

  124. cerebate Says:

    alexonhere
    “tiny minority”
    Undoubtedly a tiny minority can cause a great lot of harm. However it shouldnt be used to paint the entire majority (the equivalent would be calling all german’s nazi circa 1940’s)

  125. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    good luck on your new journey in matrimony…you poor bastard.

    Join the ranks of the damned already. 🙂

  126. cerebate Says:

    “I do not feel that problems cannot be identified or discussed without workable solutions in place”
    Not what I said. We have identified that violent jihadists are a serious problem in todays world. We have agreed that Islam can be (one of) a major cause for it. We seem to agree that we as outsiders can’t do anything about it. Therefore to keep circling around Islam as the cause when we know we can’t do anything about it would be a waste of time, when the time can be spent on the causes that we can do something about.

    ” You cannot formulate a solution to a problem, the relationship between Islamic terror and Islamic doctrine, if so few accept that the problem even exists in it’s current form.”
    Aha but this question was posed to you and snatchmaker both of whom accept quite vehemently that the relationship between Islam and Islamic terror exists. There however has still been no attempt to formulate a solution for this.

  127. cerebate Says:

    “By what they write and say (and scream at protests, burnings of effigies, etc.).”
    Kind of selective wouldnt you say? You wont believe muslims who say Islam is peaceful , but you’ll believe them when they say Islam say’s all of you’ll should be killed. Bias and prejudice.

    “The other causes – the usual other causes that are constantly trumpted forth, while most people throughout the West ignore the one elephant – or camel – in the room.”
    I find your refusal to actually name other major causes, quite amusing and illustrative.

    “It’s not a waste of time for the single reason that most people in the West, laboring under the delusion ”
    Ah , but Im not asking about the most people in the west, Im asking you, you belive islam is a major cause, and nothing can be done about it, so isn’t it a waste of your time. And even if all the people in the west say Islam is amajor cause and then say but we can do nothing about it, what will it achieve? Islamic Jihadism will still exist, no?

    “Your (b) can be problematic ..”
    Why? No matter what you do, supporting a fundamentalist regime will bite you in the ass sometime or the other (look at history)

    “Your (c) is also problematic, may be another man’s just reprisal. anything can be claimed — particularly by those every-hypersensitive and prickly Muslims — to be “interfering”.
    Why? No war is ever ‘just’. And im not referring to a hyper sensitive Muslim, Im asking you.(e.g. Id say with the benefit of hindsight Iraq was interference.The supposed reason of WMD was simply not true and the now touted reason of saddam being an oppressive dictator , well that hasnt bothered america in a lot of other countries . and you can see the end result, America is worse off now than it was before the war)

  128. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    You are correct. We do not offer any solutions outright. In my estimation, as an “outsider”, we still need to identify the problem, or at least a degree of the problem, which we apparently agree upon. The solution or solutions are quite difficult to nail down at the moment, but that fact alone should not preclude a discussion of the problem.

    Patience my young (unmarried) padawan “). All in good time.

    The discussion we have here now is invaluable if the discussion we all need to have in the future, solutions, amongst Muslims and non-Muslims alike, is ever to happen.

    If your wedding is in the US, I suggest that you invite me, for I pay out well 🙂

  129. cerebate Says:

    “Does the “combination” of these other causes serve to soften in any way the pathology of that one of the major causes under consideration — to wit, the racist hatred on the part of the whites involved? No”

    a. If someone lynched /burnt whatever, the punishment should be the same , whatever the cause.
    b. Does it soften? Id say it depends on a case by case basis. Again my view is colored by my experience where poverty does cause a lot of problem. it may not apply to say a Saudi Arabia.
    c. Is it important to know what the other causes are besides the racist hatred? (me -yes). Is it important to target the other causes assuming you couldnt do anything about the racist hatred? (me -yes).
    d. If the vast majority of the white’s considered black to be their equal, would it be ok to call White’s racist(me – no)? or that their culture has always taught them that whites are superior and hence their culture would be at fault(me – no – if you think this isnt the case look at all the races the west has called ‘savages’)? would it be ok to maintain a site and point out every instance of a white harming a black and saying “see more proof? (me -no , unless there was value being added in some way)”

  130. alexonhere Says:

    “Too busy with work this week so quick answers for now”
    Alexonhere asks:
    “is your fiance’s family in opposition to your marriage”
    her’s and mine, similar reasons
    “Are you going to marry anyway?In a Catholic church?”

    >> Yes and Yes and another marriage with my customs (same woman :)) <<

    That seems like a great solution except that it sounds like only the one family will attend the one ceremony and the other family the other ceremony. Not exactly bringing everyone together but you can only do what you can and the rest is up to them. Hopefully over time they’ll come to accept and respect your choice(s). I hope it works out for you as well as it has for my wife and me and our families.

  131. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate,

    re: your (c) above — ““c. Stop interfering and picking up wars with nations, be neutral as far as possible, be helpful if requested.” — Habib Malik in another paper, in which he proffers some suggestions for the West on dealing with the problem of Islam, puts forth this one, which puts better than I did the insufficiency of your (c) — bolded for emphasis by me:

    “Everyone in the West is all too aware of the dangers of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Currently, radical Islamic states and shadowy substate actors hostile to the West have nuisance value. But they would quickly turn into an awesome threat once they became armed with nuclear, chemical, and biological capabilities, coupled with ballistic delivery systems for states and a willingness to martyrdom for fanatic individuals and groups. It goes without saying that a heightened state of vigilance ought to be maintained at all times, and preemptive surgical operations undertaken whenever and wherever the need arises. The free and open nature of Western societies makes them especially vulnerable to acts of chemical and biological terrorism. Great emphasis needs to be put on advance warning through improved intelligence capabilities.”

    http://www.cccu.org/resourcecenter/resID.2076,parentCatID.198/rc_detail.asp

  132. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate,

    You wrote: “to keep circling around Islam as the cause when we know we can’t do anything about it would be a waste of time, when the time can be spent on the causes that we can do something about.

    awake wrote: “You cannot formulate a solution to a problem, the relationship between Islamic terror and Islamic doctrine, if so few accept that the problem even exists in it’s current form.”

    You responded: “Aha but this question was posed to you and snatchmaker both of whom accept quite vehemently that the relationship between Islam and Islamic terror exists. There however has still been no attempt to formulate a solution for this.”

    1) Pertinent solutions become forced one step away to the back burner, when the proper context of any conceivable and proposed solutions is not permitted into the discussion (i.e., when nearly everyone assiduously and/or semi-consciously works toward excluding from any causative role in the problem Islam itself and the vast majority of Muslims);

    2) Such solutions as may be developed once the Pre-Problem of #1 begins to be sociopolitically addressed would be unremarkable solutions that free democratic nation-states would rationally implement (such as one measure — internment of Japanese-Americans, German-Americans, and Italian-Americans — implemented by the greatest liberal president of the 20th century, Franklin D. Roosevelt, supported by the majority of the American population, and never overturned to this day by the Supreme Court as un-Constitutional though it has been sociopolitically overturned by the Superior Court of Political Correctness, which has become a hidden 5th Estate — not to mention a Fifth Column), once they recognize the problem of a trans-national ideology based on injustice and dangerously violent supremacist expansionism furthermore inveterately hallowed by centuries of tradition protected by the aura of a “world religion”, and strengthened by a rich and powerful heritage of pneumopathological spirituality, with an indeterminable perichoresis among the two populations of Dangerous Muslims and Harmless Muslims.

  133. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    The example you take (of nuclear non proliferation) is a very poor one. id prefer my country(India) to have no nuclear weapons, but if an american says we shouldnt have them , Id just laugh at them.
    The problem is that america is not seen as practicing what it preaches and as importantly isnt consistent either. Iran – fundamentalist Islamic state – no nuclear weapon for you. Pakistan – our ally? dont ask dont tell ,What’s that the pakistani scientist was selling nuclear secrets to Iran, N Korea? oh well pakistan’s internal matter’s we wont interfere . Israel? oh you definitely need to have them , here we can help you!

    “preemptive surgical operations undertaken ”
    Like Iraq and Afghanistan I suppose? It hasnt worked before , what makes people think it will work now?

    Refusal to learn from mistakes is a very bad trait to have.

  134. cerebate Says:

    “1) Pertinent solutions become forced one step away to the back burner, when the proper context of any conceivable and proposed solutions is not permitted into the discussion ”
    Again ,Im asking you , not a group of people. You can introduce any context you like.

    2) A lot of rhetoric, but no substance. i didnt ask who would implement the solution, merely what do you propose.If you cant propose any solution, then please admit it.

  135. cerebate Says:

    alexonhere
    Thanks for the words. We’re hoping both sets will attend both marriages (may bankrupt us , but what the heck)

  136. awake Says:

    cerebate,

    you wrote:
    “alexonhere
    Thanks for the words. We’re hoping both sets will attend both marriages (may bankrupt us , but what the heck)”

    That’s the spirit. Marriage is certainly one of the biggest leaps of faith. Children are even bigger. cest la vie’.

    In all sincerity, best of luck cerebate.

  137. snatchmaker Says:

    cerebrate, you reiterate yet again your question to me, asking for my “solution” to the problem of Islam.

    I already addressed this before, though it’s understandable that it got obscured amid all the disparate and long posts above (plus some of its connecting threads are sprinkled among other of my posts here and there):

    First, we have to deconstruct our own Politically Correct Multi-culturalist paradigm whereby we continually disable ourselves from protecting ourselves against an Islamically motivated danger. And this, indeed, will not be a “solution” anyway: it will only be an indefinite holding pattern of self-defense whose highest ambition will be at best simply to manage and ameliorate the problem. I don’t see this problem going away in the next century or two. But I do see the possibility that the West will at least wake up to be able to take rational measures of self-defense in the coming decades. These rational measures, based upon a deconstruction of the PC MC paradigm, however, will likely not come about until, tragically, the West in various locations has incurred several more, and probably much more horrific, attacks than it has heretofore.

    So, I only see the West needing to adopt “rational measures of self-defense” which, however, will not make the problem vanish but will only, at best, minimize it to hopefully an appreciable degree.

    My understanding of such “rational measures” would integrate certain facts about Islam, which currently the Politicallly Correct Multi-Culturalist template obfuscates:

    1) the indeterminable perichoresis among the two populations of Dangerous Muslims and Harmless Muslims, whereby our ability to tell the difference, for proactively defensive purposes, between these two populations is severely hampered — which is more of a problem to the degree that those difficult-to-detect Muslims who want to mass-murder us will in the years ahead become increasingly able to deploy WMDs of various horrific flavors;

    2) the trans-national nature of Islam, which pragmatically facilitates the widespread deployment of terrorism, and also ideologically inspires its adherents with a supra-nationalist ethic deemed by them superior to sociopolitical structures the rest of the world has learned to evolve into;

    3) the sociopolitico-cultural structures of Islam that reflect the problematic perichoresis noted in #1, which in turn facilitate the networking capabilities of those who desire to mass-murder and/or maim our infrastructures.

    Some concrete rational measures (not in practical order necessarily):

    1)

    either

    a) far more rigorous surveillance of mosques, madrassas, and the myriad alphabet-soup Islamic organizations that exist throughout the West

    or

    b) shutting all, or most, of them down

    2) a Western re-definition or re-categorization of Muslims, whereby Islam is also re-defined as a dangerous and unjust ideology, and therefore all its members are suspect — either

    a) unless they demonstrate otherwise under strict guidelines

    or

    b) comprehensively, regardless of their apparent moderation.

    3) Deportation of Muslims, either

    a) of only the “extremists”

    or (since our practical determination of “extremism” suffers from the problems of perichoresis noted above)

    b) of all Muslims.

    4) Internment of Muslims — but probably only doable after the West (or those particular countries deciding to implement this) have incurred one or more horrific attacks (probably far worse than 911).

    There. That should be enough hors-d’oeuvres on the table for now.

  138. alexonhere Says:

    Just to clarify…

    “Tiny Minority of Extremists” refers not just to thousands of actual murderers who kill innocents and infidels (and yes other insufficiently pure Muslims) for Allah and Islam. It also includes Millions of extreme supporters and sympathizers.

    When this vastly wider network of supporting and sympathizing Islamic extremists is factored in then the descriptive “Tiny Minority” is exposed as the sadly laughable sobriquet and well-deserved target of derision it has become on jihadwatch.

    — alexon

  139. cerebate Says:

    awake
    thanks 🙂
    alexon
    “It also includes Millions of extreme supporters and sympathizers. ”
    Agreed. However in my experience there aren’t that many(yes the palestinians dance in the streets), I have seen it mostly of the form “its wrong, but we are also mistreated , we are also killed, the west is unfair” i.e. they tend to justify it (which is also wrong). Undoubtedly the people who support and cooperate with the extremists are very dangerous even if they dont do anything directly.

  140. cerebate Says:

    snatchmaker
    Interesting. My comments.
    1 a) very difficult to implement practically. Would need some sort of infiltration no?
    b) Correct me if im wrong, but this would need a change in the US constitution? specifically the right to practice any religion? If so , short of declaring the US as a judeo-christian state i dont see how this can be achieved?
    2 a) And these guidelines would be?
    3 a) If it could be proved they are extremists, wouldnt you simply imprison them? why deport?
    b) And those who are born for e.g. christians and choose Islam later in their lives?
    For me the major flaws in your solution are
    a. It would almost certainly lead to some amount of initial bloodshed.(and probably lots). Worldwide opinion would be against it
    b. It’s short term in nature.You believe If the west can rid itself of muslims,its problem is solved. Almost certainly you would have a Muslims v/s Non Muslims war sometime. To say nothing of what the oil rich Islamic countries would do in retaliation immediately , and you have no current solution to your dependency on oil.
    Reading your solution I was reminded of 1984 btw.
    Anyways awake, alexonhere since you’ll will probably favor some points that snatchmaker makes, your views?

  141. alexonhere Says:

    Yes, Alexander “The Great” was a War Monger. Agreed.
    Does anyone today view Alexander as anything but? Most Americans would have no idea who Alexander was or what he did or where he lived.

    Muhammad was also, ultimately, a War Monger. And yet he is still today celebrated by hundreds of millions of Muslims as the ‘perfect example’ or ‘perfect man’. No wonder so many are trying to immitate his example.

    Hey cerebrate, let me know if you engage on JW or DW again, ok? I would like to see how it goes.

  142. snatchmaker Says:

    alexonhere,

    Interestingly, there is an Islamic legend, based on Koran passages, that elevate Alexander the Great to the status of a Believer and even Prophet — and of course, as a man possessing that particular quality so attractive to most Muslims: an expansionist military commander.

    See for details http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Newton/alex.html

    Though the site linked above argues that the figure in the Koran (Zul-Qarnain) could not be the real Alexander of history, nevertheless it’s not what’s real that’s important with our problem with Muslims, it’s what they think is real that tends to cause all the problems.

  143. snatchmaker Says:

    I’ve been rather busy of late, so it took me time to get back here.

    cerebrate,

    To my concrete proposals about how to manage (not “solve”) the problem of Islam (relevant passages of my proposal re-pasted in italics), you wrote:

    a) far more rigorous surveillance of mosques, madrassas, and the myriad alphabet-soup Islamic organizations that exist throughout the West
    1 a) very difficult to implement practically. Would need some sort of infiltration no?

    Yes, and also a utilization of a human resource heretofore largely ignored by intelligence agencies — non-Muslim (mostly Christian) Arabs as well as ex-Muslims in general.

    b) shutting all, or most, of them down
    b) Correct me if im wrong, but this would need a change in the US constitution? specifically the right to practice any religion? If so , short of declaring the US as a judeo-christian state i dont see how this can be achieved?

    There are two precedents I have become aware of recently for taking rational measures of self-defense against a seditious and dangerous religion:

    1) a Military Order by the Governor of Missouri in 1838 in response to the new cult Mormonism, in which the Governor ordered: [because of their] “…open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this State … the Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary for the public peace—their outrages are beyond all description.”
    And indeed, federal troops did move against and expel the Mormons, such that they had to move Westward.

    2) Jefferson’s writings on seditious and unjust religions:

    a) “If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market.” –Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

    b) “It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order.” –Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

    c) “Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration.” –Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547.

    2) a Western re-definition or re-categorization of Muslims, whereby Islam is also re-defined as a dangerous and unjust ideology, and therefore all its members are suspect — either

    a) unless they demonstrate otherwise under strict guidelines…
    2 a) And these guidelines would be?

    My #2 depends on re-defining Islam, but such a re-definition, per the precedents quoted above, need not render Islam a non-religion: all this is necessary is to enlarge our current definition and restore the understanding which most pre-PC scholars had of Islam, that it is not solely a religion in the sense that term has become compartmentalized by modern Western sensibilities, but a Total System for Regulating Behavior and Thought, with central tenets that are unjust and dangerous. The “guidelines” I was thinking of would include at least the following:

    a) an abandonment of the idea of “religious self-defense” — i.e., an abandonment of politico-military jihad, leaving all “self-defense” up to secular authorities of police and armies (as all other members of other religions do in all societies)

    b) an abandonment of the desire to replace non-Islamic laws in non-Islamic countries with Islamic laws.

    Of course, there’s always the problem that a given Muslim can express such “guidelines”, but not be sincere. However, one could have such a condition in place as a formality, with stiff penalties anytime a given Muslim demonstrates in any way that he has violated said guidelines.

    3) Deportation of Muslims, either a) of only the “extremists”
    3 a) If it could be proved they are extremists, wouldnt you simply imprison them? why deport?

    It depends. If imprisoning them becomes vulnerable to later release into society, and/or if it is more costly and cumbersome than deportation, then deportation would be better. And vice-versa.

    b) of all Muslims.
    b) And those who are born for e.g. christians and choose Islam later in their lives?

    Yes. The nativity of Muslims is not the problem: it’s the ideology, whether congenital or adopted, it’s still unjust and dangerous.

    You go on to write:

    For me the major flaws in your solution are
    a. It would almost certainly lead to some amount of initial bloodshed.(and probably lots). Worldwide opinion would be against it.

    Sometimes pro-active measures that are deemed rationally necessary will involve pain — whether in the medical treatment of a sick body, or in the politico-military treatment of a sick ideology.

    b. It’s short term in nature.You believe If the west can rid itself of muslims,its problem is solved.

    I said prior to this post here, and I repeated up above, that my proposals are framed as management of the problem, not “solution”. I believe my proposals would minimize the problems Muslims cause at least in the Dar-al-Harb. As Hugh Fitzgerald at Dhimmi Watch put it recently, articulating the problems Muslims have been causing in the non-Muslim world (with my additions Hugh neglected to mention in brackets):

    “What are all those extra security details for — at airports and train stations and bus stations [and shopping malls and major social events of celebrities and politicians] and in front of government buildings, [at power stations and nuclear plants and water reservoirs[and near embassies of the United States and Israel and Australia, and in front of churches and synagogues, and Christian and Jewish schools, and symbolic structures expressive of the nation-state’s Infidel history (as at St. Denis, where the French kings are buried)? What?

    “And how much does all this now cost the Infidel nation-states of Europe? And how much will it cost, if the Muslim immigrants continue to come and those already here are permitted to remain, even if they do not, and cannot possibly, offer their unfeigned allegiance to Infidels, and to the political and legal institutions of the Infidel nation-state?”

    Just think of it. Every major airport, for example, in the world has to spend millions of dollars a year on security mostly because of the threat of Muslims. Then there are all those famous people around the world who require bodyguards to protect them from death threats from Muslims — from Salman Rushdie to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to Geert Wilders to the Mayor of Amsterdam to Nonie Darwish to Robert Spencer, to the French philosophy teacher who simply wrote an essay against Islam and now he and his whole family had to go into hiding to the German linguist scholar who dared to theorize that the Koran has many non-Arabic sources and has since gone anonymous and hired bodyguards (on the advice of his Muslim friends — who know what Muslims are capable of!), etc. ad horrible nauseam.

    Reading your solution I was reminded of 1984 btw.

    In fact, the traditional Muslim division of the world into the Dar-al-Islam (the Sphere or “House” of Islam) and the Dar-al-Harb (the Sphere or “House” of War) — whereby all those lands not yet subjugated under Islam will be in perpetual war — is what should more pertinently remind one of Orwell’s 1984.

  144. alexonhere Says:

    snatchmaker,

    that is amazing! I had no idea that Muslims would have any knowledge about A the G, let alone possible admiration. But then it does make sense when you consider the mindset and admiration for Muhammad’s warmongering etc.

    “Incredible but True” seems to apply to much of Islam. If only it were a benign phenomena…

    thanks for the info. I’ll read your other post when i have more time.

  145. in2thefray Says:

    Yeah imagine the folks that created numbers,algebra and advances in science and medicine would know anything about history. Holy Crap !!

  146. alexonhere Says:

    in2thefray:

    I admit I was somewhat careless in lumping ALL Muslims together as having a lack of interest in non-Muslim, pre-Islamic history. But…

    There is a term from the Qur’an, “Jahiliyya” which means the “ignorance” before Islam. And that is how many, if not most, Muslims view pre-Islamic history — as basically worthless, unworthy of study, certainly not to be respected.

    So that’s what prompted my above comment which you find objectionable.

    So there’s good reason to doubt that most Muslims would bother learning about Alex the great (born in the 4th Century B.C. by the Christian calendar), many centuries before Muhammad and islam.

    And if they did bother studying him then it would only stand to reason that they might well view him through an Islamo-centric prism of admiration for his expansive military conquests, similar in many respects to willful and militant Muhammad, founder of their be all and end all faith; Islam.

    One might say that we view Alex the Great through our own Western prism as well. But then wouldn’t we also find admirable traits in him which reflect the greatness and pride we seek in our own heritage? Sadly, no.

    Well, the reason why is sad, not the fact that we no longer view him as heroic. Unfortunately we don’t seek greatness or pride in Western Civilization and history anymore, or maybe we would find something good in Alex the Great, even today.

    Alexon the Great 😉

  147. snatchmaker Says:

    alexonhere, the main (possibly the only) reason that figure in Koran 18:86 is Alexander the Great has less to do with Islamic interest in the Jahiliyya than with the fact that this Koran passage is simply relaying a prior legend about Alexander that had already been held by Jews and Christians long before Mohammed —

    The Jews made Alexander a believer and favoured by God so much that “God parted the waters of the Pamphylian sea so that Alexander’s troops might pass in pursuit of the Persians.”[9]

    Like wise the Christians made him a saint. Here is a sample of Alexander’s prayer:

    And king Alexander bowed himself and did reverence, saying, “O God, Lord of kings and judges, thou who settest up kings and destroyest their power, I know in my mind that thou hast exalted me above all kings, and thou hast made me horns upon my head, wherewith I might thrust down the kingdoms of the world; give me power from thy holy heavens … I will magnify thy name, O Lord, forever … and I will write the name of God in the charter of my kingdom, that there may be for Thee a memorial always. And if the Messiah, who is the Son of God, comes in my days, I and my troops will worship Him…”[10].

    These legends were simply carried over into the Hadiths.

    So it’s not a matter of historical-archeological interest on the part of medieval Muslims, but more of simply reverence for unthinkingly transmitted legends encoded in the Koran, Hadiths and Sira (many other legends also exist in the Koran and Hadiths and Sira — such as eschatological symbolisms).

  148. snatchmaker Says:

    alex — the references 9 and 10 from the above post have to do with the site I copied from —

    9. The Medieval Alexander, George Cart, Cambridge at the university press, 1956, p.126.
    10. “A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander”, in The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, p.146.

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Newton/alex.html

  149. alexonhere Says:

    snatchmaker, thanks for the extra info.

    confession: I haven’t yet clicked on the link you provided in your first mention of this Alexander the Great topic. So my reply (“that is amazing!”) was simply taking your info at face value without looking in to it at all (i’m very stressed for time and energy these days). And then when in2fray chided me for my admittedly breezy comment, I got distracted with his sniping and went off on my own speculation about Jahiliyya and how that might explain why many/most Muslims have little interest and respect for pre-Islamic history, and tied that in with Alexander the So-So 😉

    And the only reason I mentioned Alex the Great in the first place is because waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in this thread there was a post by cerebate where he wondered why it was ok for A. the G. to be celebrated by westerners for his warmongering, but not ok for Muhammad to be admired for his warmongering.

    Maybe, just maybe, cerebate knew something about the Christian/Jewish honoring of Alex the Great that I didn’t. I doubt it, but it is possible…. Cerebate?

  150. snatchmaker Says:

    alex

    When cerebrate asked his rhetorical question, he neglected to contextualize the two things he is apparently putting on the same level:

    1) the Islamic adulation of Mohammed

    and

    2) Western admiration for Alexander the Great.

    The larger context, to anyone with a few minutes of intelligent study and thought, reveals that the Western memory and admiration for Alexander the Great’s words & deeds does not command any kind of sociopolitical following at all (at best perhaps a dusty little gathering of nerds in the history department of some ivy league college somewhere); whereas the Islamic memory and admiration for Mohammed commands not only a trans-national following of hundreds of millions, but a following that is so profound as to be near fanatical — having become the basis for a regulation of life on all levels, from political laws, to social customs, all the way down to how a Muslim eats his food and eliminates his urine and bowels — and a following which frequently elicits irrational and dangerous behaviors (e.g., the Muslism who rioted and killed simply because a journalist observed that Mohammed would have been attracted to Miss Universe; or the Muslims who refused to allow a fellow Muslim to market his rare movie depicting the life of Mohammed (he even went to scrupulous care to never show Mohammed in his own movie, but that wasn’t enough for the admirers of Mohammed!) and made his life difficult with death threats, until finally his movie found a venue in America (Washington D.C. in the 1970s) where a group of Salafist Sunni Muslims took a building hostage and threatened lives in protest; and let us not forget the Mohammed cartoons of Holland, revived recently by another cartoonist in Denmark; etc.).

    Why cerebrate, who seems fairly intelligent, would even take the trouble to type out that comparison, indicates a symptom of the politically correct multi-culturalist disease.

    Your prior point about the Jahiliyya was a good guess, however, and actually it is kind of relevant to the whole Alexander the Great legend. I think the admiration for AG in Islamic tradition is not simply an inexplicable exception to the Jahiliyya worthlessness in Islamic eyes; rather, it can be seen as a transmission of an ancient legend that in fact shows that there were “good Muslims” previous to Mohammed (as you probably know, Muslims believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Jacob, Jeremiah, etc. as well as Jesus were all “good Muslims”). In fact, those “good Muslims” previous to Mohammed were, in the Islamic view, operating in a constant context of a larger surrounding culture of Jahiliyya — and it was only with Mohammed and the politico-military triumph of Islam that finally a powerful alternative to Jahiliyya appeared on Earth. Alexander the Great in this sense, because he was (according to Islamic legend) one of those pre-Mohammedan “good Muslims”, was a kind of precursor to Mohammed in that he at least powerfully established a bit of “Islam” for a while prior to Mohammed.

    As you also may know, most Muslims do not simply follow the Koran: they also follow exegetical texts that elucidate the Koran for their juridico-clerical class who in turn explain it to the people. This para-Koranic literature among the vast majority of Muslims, Sunni Muslims, is called the “Sunna” (hence the name “Sunni” Muslims). Included in the Sunna are the Hadiths and various authoritative Tafsirs (explanations) of the Koran. One of the most authoritative Tafsir authors was Ibn Kathir. Here’s what he wrote about Koran 18:86 which deal with the Alexander legend:

    We have already mentioned how the disbelievers of Makkah sent word to the People of the Book and asked them for some information with which they could test the Prophet. They (the People of the Book) said, `Ask him about a man who traveled extensively throughout the earth… then Surat Al-Kahf [i.e., chapter 18 of the Koran] was revealed.

    Dhul-Qarnayn [i.e., Alexander the Great] had great Power. (Verily, We [i.e., Allah] established him in the earth,) means, `We have given him great power, so that he had all that kings could have of might, armies, war equipment and siege machinery.’ So he had dominion over the east and the west, all countries and their kings submitted to him, and all the nations, Arab and non-Arab, served him. Some of them said he was called Dhul-Qarnayn (the one with two horns) because he reached the two “Horns” of the sun, east and west, where it rises and where it sets.

    Allah gave him the means of all things, meaning the means and power to conquer all areas, regions and countries, to defeat enemies, suppress the kings of the earth and humiliate the people of Shirk.

    The “people of Shirk” means people who follow “Shirk” — which in Islam means anything that smacks of polytheism, including the divinity of Jesus, and even including following any human authorities and laws that are not directly following the laws Allah handed down directly to Mohammed. It’s ironic that Islamic legend would think Alexander the Great used his military might to suppress Shirk (polytheism), when actually, historians say that he practiced a rather all-embracing syncretism, paying respect to all the different gods and cults of every region he conquered.

    Ibn Kathir goes on to write about what the Koran says about the Dhul-Qarnayn (i.e., Alexander the Great):

    He said: “As for him who does wrong [i.e., does not follow the Guidance of Allah — since later on, Ibn Kathir explains this means anyone “who persists in his Kufr and in associating others [i.e. Shirk] in worship with his Lord], we shall punish him [Ibn Kathir later explains “punish” means explicitily “kill” (qatadah)], and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with a terrible torment (Hell).”

    Ibn Kathir continues explaining what the Koran reports Alexander the Great said:

    “But as for him who believes”, meaning `who follows us in our call to worship Allah Alone with no partner or associate,’ “he shall have the best reward”, meaning in the Hereafter, with Allah.

    Ibn Kathir clearly shows that this Dhul-Qarnayn (i.e., Alexander the Great) was a politico-military agent of Allah before the time of Mohammed — a kind of proto-Mohammed, really.

  151. alexonhere Says:

    Thanks snatchmaker, that’s a great post. Very informative.

    I wonder if this explanation, this mirrored pre- (or proto-) Islamic veneration of A. the G., extends to Shia as well as Sunni commentators?

    After all, didn’t A. the G. spend a lion’s share of his military campaigning within and against Persia?

    Could there be a not so subtle slur (by Sunni commentators) against the Shia by inflating legends of this man, A. the G., who ran roughshod over the “people of shirk” such as Persians who eventually became Shia Muslims instead of hewing to the true, pure Islam of the Arabian peninsula (Sunni Islam). ??

    Good point also re: the relative importance of A. the G. to Western people (virtually nil) vs. the fanatical devotion to Muhammad among the world’s Muslims. Just imagine some cartoons making fun of (or even just depicting) A. the G. sparking riots, mayhem, and murder among Westerners!

    Not.

  152. Sukran Says:

    Awake said:
    “In your estimation, what is a moderate Muslim and how do they arrive at their particular beliefs?”

    The answer of this question could be so broad and it could include any Muslim from any sect or any school, everyone believes in Qur’an.

    The first thing came to my mind is, a moderate Muslim has to seek PEACE with everyone.

    I am not sure about second part of your question. From my experience as a moderate Muslim, it has started feeling a sense of RESPONSIBILITY.

    Peace,

  153. alexonhere Says:

    this is a [b]test[/b].

  154. alexonhere Says:

    a failed test 😦


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