The Women With Mustaches Who Will Kill The Mahdi 1

333 magnify

When I saw this discussion I knew you would want to see it too, since we are on the subject of the Mahdi. It is completely out of order, I know, but couldn’t resist putting it up. It was taken from a Shiite chat room. At the bottom of the post will be some questions for my Muslim readers.

Question:

OK people, not sure about exactly what will happen after Imam Mehdi arrives, but it is said that Imam Mahdi will eventually be a shaheed. Imam Mehdi will be killed by a women with a moustache.
I have been told that Ayatollah Behjat has said that the women has been born few weeks ago. Can anyone confirm this? Ayatollah Behjat has a reputation of seeing the unknown, and has great respect.
Is the time coming near for the arrival?!?

Anyone with info reply to this post.

Answer#1…

Ayatollah Behjat (HA) is among the Greatest ‘Urefa of our time.
As you progress towards Allah and become His intimate, He lifts the veils of Unseen and shares His secrets with you.
Once Ayatollah Behjat (HA) was delivering 2 lectures at the same time, at 2 different places !
What you speak of now, Once around 2-3 years ago or so, Ayatollah Behjat (HA) was giving a lecture to his students. Then he suddenly started to cry, the students got scared but were to embarrased to ask why. After the session one of his closest disciples stepped forth and asked why his master started to cry just like that, whereupon he answered that as he was teaching he had a vision where he saw a jewish girl who just had been born in Isfahan, who would be the killer of Imam Mahdi (A)

Answer#2…

that happened like 3 or 4 years ago, not a few weeks ago. AndI that thing about the moustache is new. It might be true and it might be false.

Answer#3…

i heard the mostache womans name will be MALIHA
where i live,ive seen women growing mostaches(sry if its the wrong spelling)

Answer#4…

Can anyone elaborate? I havent heard that he will die

Answer#5…

ive heard this prophesy alot for a long time……..her name will be Maliha(astaghfirrilha)

Answer#6…

Yea i have heard that too…she would be a jew and her name would be either maliha or sa’eeda…And I am not sure , (Allah forgive me if I say something wrong) she would kill the imam after ruj’a..I have also heard that it would be a time when even iblees would have been defeated by imam-e-zaman and the rest of the imams, and she would be the only creature on earth….but again, I do not have any authentic source to support my point of view. And most shia ulema say that it is not wise to inquire about the details of what will happen after zahoor, because we dont know much…there are ahadith allright but we really dont know much details…

Answer#7 and in my opinion the smartest question asked….

even though Ayatollah Behjat (ha) is a very respected and noble man,i thought visions like these were only given to Prophets and Imams……..could any1 please shed light on this

I couldn’t find where that question was ever answered. The conversation took place in April of 2003. I am not putting it up to laugh, although it is somewhat amusing and we have been into some heavy stuff. But I have the same question that the last person gave. If we look at the definition of Prophecy it says it is the divine gift of speaking the truth, especially about the future. One who speaks prophecy is called a prophet. Now in Christianity there was never a ‘cut off’ on prophecy or messages from God, but in Islam, it is my understanding that that’s a different story all together. So if one of my Muslim readers can answer the question I would appreciate it. Especially if you are a Shiite Muslim.

The content of the conversation then went on to discuss the signs of the end times, which I am also putting up as some of them are different than the ones we have already gone over.

a.. Knowledge will finish in Najaf and the centre will move to Qum.Many ulema have been imprisoned and killed in Najaf. As a result, we
have seen in the past 100 years that the centre of ilm is moving
towards Qum.

b.. Baghdad will be extremely modern and will be full of vices and evils. As a result of this, an adhaab of a dark storm will be sent upon the people. It was mentioned on TV that Baghdad experienced such a dark storm, which covered the area for three days that nothing could be seen. It was a storm that broke a record of past decades.

c.. Earth shattering explosives will destroy Baghdad.d.. Destruction of Baghdad will come from air. Did that mean
Airplanes?
e.. Baghdad will be occupied by people from different nations.
Today, Americans and Britons have occupied Baghdad.
f.. It has been narrated by Masoom that AlQaim (atfs) will not re appear till a seventh door has been made in The Masjid of Kufa.Masjid Al Kufa had 6 doors. Once Saddam went there and it was very crowded. 3 doors had been opened. He ordered for all 6 doors to be opened. Then he looked around and said that the wall in one area was very long without any door. He ordered a door to be put there. THUS, THE SEVENTH DOOR HAS ALREADY BEEN PUT THERE.

Want more ?

1. The Jews will reach a spot in Iraq (around Karbala it is) called Forat, I think it is a river (From jeum al-Khalas)

2. Sheikh Kurani has said that all the signs, except the 6 major which are bound to happen, have already happened, and we await the other ones to happen insh’Allah.

3. a Man from Qom will araise who will pull people to him like iron, and he will be the vanguard and bring back Islam on new (making it alive again) – Imam Khomeini ยฎ perhaps?

4. A man by the Name of Seyyed Khorasani will battle against the Infidels for 7 years with 70’000 warriors, and then hand over the banner to Imam Mahdi (A). Imam Mahdi (A) will greet him and stretch forth his right hand to shake Seyyed Khorasani’s hand, but he will reply with the left, when poeple ask why they will be told his right hand is Shaheed…

Also I’ve heard his name is to be Ali Hossein or something…
(Rings a bell upon Imam Khamenei (HA), who is from Khorasani, his name is Ali Husseini al-Khamenei, and his Right Side and Hand is martyred becase of the assassination attempt by Munafeqine Khalq to blow him up).
Be prepared with the Sword of your Hearts, and lets do the Revolution before Imam Mahdi (A) comes, if you wish to be among his sincere devotees, as reliance on one man is wrong, rather we all have the Qaem within us, its about using this power and force and we can accomplish this ourselves.In Bihar Al Anwar(I Think), the hadith from our Imam says ” A man from our descendent(Sayyid) whose name will be similiar with the name of Prophet Isa(Jesus) will rise from Qum “Imam Khomeini(ra) First name was ROUHULLAH(Spirit of Allah)****
Prophet Jesus(as) was refered as ROUHULLAH(spirit of God) in the Holy Book

QUOTE
the author of ‘eqdud-durar’ in section one, chapter four narrates from ‘al-fatan’ of hafiz abu-abdullah na’eem-ibn-hemmad and he, from yazid-ibn-khalil asadi who said: ‘i was in the presence of imam muhammad baqir (a.s.). he mentioned two of the signs which would occur before the emergence of mahdi and which has not yet been witnessed (right from the time of fall of adam till now). one sign is this that there shall occur an eclipse of the sun on 15th of ramadhan and the moon too shall be eclipsed at the end of ramadhan.
a person said: ‘o son of messenger of Allah! it is not as you say. rather the sun will be eclipsed at the end of the month of ramadhan and the moon will be eclipsed during the middle of the month.
imam baqir (a.s.) said: the one who says these words is knowing better (than you) that right from the time of adam’s fall till today these two signs have not occurred…….

the author of es’aaf-ul-raghaben’ too has narrated the same tradition

sayed khorasani

QUOTE
the author of ‘eqdud-durar’ in chapter five narrates from hafiz abu abdullah na’eem – ibn -hemaad who narrates from sa’eed-ibn- musayyeb that the messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.)said:

‘a person from bani-abbass shall emerge from the east and whatever Allah wishes will be established accordingly. afterwards, men with small black flags will rise and will battle out with the offsprings of abu sufyan. they will prepare the ground for the obedience and submission of mahdi.in the same chapter of the afore-said book, its author narrates from na’eem-ibn-hemaad (from his book ‘fatan’) that muhammad-ibn-hanafiya said: ‘the people of the flag will emerge from khorasan. afterwards people of another flag with white will rise. a man from bani-tamim called as tamim-ibn-saleh will face them…. it will be then that people would seek and desire for mahdi. again, in the same chapter of the same book, its author narrates from na’eem-ibn-hemaad and he from shareey-ibn-abdullah rashid-ibn-sa’ad and hamza-ibn-habib as such:‘the people of the east will swear allegiance to a person from bani-hashim who shall emerge with the army of khorasan. a man from bani-tamim will face them…. if mountains confront him, he will destroy them. later he will encounter the army of sufyani and will defeat them. fierce battle will take place with them and he will kill them. he will expel them from one place to another until he will defeat them in iraq. thereafter an incident shall occur between them as a result of which sufyani will gain victory and the hashimi man will escape towards mecca and tamim-ibn-saleh (who is one of the leaders of the army of hashimi) will escape towards baitul-muqaddas. when mahdi shall reappear, the hashimi man too will emerge.*Khorasan is Iran

I am terribly sorry for stealing this thread But here are signs of Zohoor of our Imam traditions have come down about the signs of mahdi’s emergence and the events which would occur before his uprising and the evidences which would be discovered before his emergence. they are as such:

(1) sufyani’s revolt,
(2) killing of hasani,
(3) discord amongst bani-abbass about possession of kingdom
(4) eclipse of the sun during mid-shaban
(5) unusual eclipse of the moon during the end of shaban contrary to astronomies calculations. the moon will not be eclipsed but during the thirteenth, fourteenth or fifteenth of the month. the moon will be eclipsed at the time when the sun and the moon would be facing each other in a special form.the eclipse of the sun will not occur but on the twenty-seventh, twenty-eight or twenty-ninth of the month. the sun will be eclipsed at the time when it comes close to the moon in a special form

(6) rising of the sun from the west,
(7) killing of seventy pious people (3) killing
(9) destruction of the wall of the mosque of kufa,
(10) advancement of the holders of black flags from khorasan
(11) yamani’s revolt
(12) maghrabi’s revolt in egypt and becoming the ruler of syri
(13) descencion of turks in an island
(14) the coming of romans in rumalah
(15) the rising of a star in the east which would be like a sparkling moon
(16) that star would bend and break into two in such a manner that they would come close to each other

(17) a redness will appear in the sky and it will cover its surrounding
(18) a fire would appear throughout the east and it would remain so for three or seven days
(19) arabs would set free their rein
(20) arabs would become owners of cities
(21) arabs would exit from the rule of iranian kings
(22) the inhabitants of egypt would kill their ruler and his commands
(23) syria would be destroyed and three flags will advance towards it
(24) the flags of qais and arab would advance towards egypt
(25) engraved flags would advance towards khorasan
(26) the entry of some arabs in the outskirts of hirah
(27) the coming of black flags from the east
(28) a split shall occur in euphrates as a result of which its water would flow on the roads of kura
(29) sixty liars will emerge where each of them will claim prophethood for themselves
(30) twelve persons from the progeny of abu-talib would revolt and each of them would claim imamate for themselves
(31) a dignified person from the followers of bani-abbass will get drowned near the bridge of karkh in baghdad
(32) a black wind will blow in baghdad
(33) an earthquake shall occur in baghdad where a greater portion of the city will collapse
(34) fear will encompass the inhabitants of iraq
(35) death will swiftly overtake the people of iraq
(36) the people of iraq will face deficience in their property and fruit
(37) locusts will appear during the normal season as well as during off-season and they will get attracted to plants and cereals
(38)the agriculture output of the people will be poor
(39) discord will arise amongst non-arabs and they will shed blood of one another
(40) slaves shall disobey their master and will kill them.

(41) after that, it would rain successively for twenty-four times. the earth would become alive after its death and would throw out its treasures. at that time, all types of calamities will be kept away from mahdi’s believers. at that moment they will realize that mahdi has emerged in mecca. as a result, they will move towards mecca for assisting hazrat and the same can be seen in the traditions.

I could go on, but that is enough for this post. Besides from here they went into how they must all learn to fight as they will be required to go to war with the Mahdi, which we will be getting to. How many different things can you find in regards to what we have already covered. Actually, it might be easier to find how many that do. Obviously we aren’t done with the series yet so there are plenty of things to go over, but we have pretty much covered the signs that lead to the coming of the Mahdi. There seems to be a fare bit of confusion at least within some Muslim circles.

The Shiite Muslims that were having this conversation made mention of the Sunni’s saying: “the sunni hadith seem to speak more of the coming of the dajjal. which relates to the coming of the Imam but they don’t seem to focus on the latter much (I guess that’s obvious, they barely know who to expect).”

I don’t mean to be too critical but it appears at least to me, that the Shiites don’t know what to expect either. Why else would there be so many different opinions?? I am a novice when it comes to Islam, but in my research for this series, I have seen plenty of contradiction within the same sects. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve also seen agreement, but something doesn’t smell right. Please Please Please, if there is a Shiite Muslim reading this, please comment and tell us your opinion. Also, any other Muslim, please give your opinion.

As I have already stated, there are those that rely, only on the Quran, and as far as one individual, I will be deadicating at least one post just for him.

I’m sorry these posts are so long, but since I am only putting the long ones up Monday Wednesday and Friday I guess you could read half on one day and the other half the next lol.

Advertisements

69 Responses to “The Women With Mustaches Who Will Kill The Mahdi 1”

  1. Eagle Says:

    One more thing, I just listened to a tape from a Christian pastor who had a 1 hour interview with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and a question was put to the Mufti about whether it was true that there is no compulsion in Islam. The Mufti said it was true and they discussed the verse.

    The Christian then asked, if that is true, then shouldn’t Muslims be allowed to convert away from Islam…

    Needless to say, the Mufti was not amused, nor did he agree. I may post that video in the future, I am also interested in what Muslims think of this.

  2. Stefan Says:

    Thanks eagle for your post

    I think that you need more Muslim audience from different sects, I will try to invite someone from Islamic forums.

    And certainly the Mufti will be speechless, his teachings are contradicting each other without even asking himself why? and how?

    “Some Islamic countries with Islamic law outlaw and carry strict sentences for proselytizing.”

    “Several Islamic countries under Islamic law, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Maldives outlaw apostasy and carry imprisonment or the death penalty for those leaving Islam and those enticing Muslims to leave Islam.”

    Unfortunately it is not allowed in any sect to leave Islam even if you wanted to follow the “Quran alone” within Islam (which allows freedom of religion) ,you are considered kaafir (infidel) .

    http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=604&ln=eng

    Compulsion in religion is worthless.

  3. Eagle Says:

    Stefan,

    As usual, I agree with you. I know that the verse about no compulsion in religion is thrown completely out the window when it has to do with Muslims (well Muslim nations) anyway. And sometimes when it has to do with anybody else. I know that it isn’t only thrown out the window, its criminal and can cost you your life.

    I have had a conversation with someone who wanted to complain about America, but if the real truth were known, I bet there would be a lot of non religious Muslims if they had the freedom to choose. My heart goes out to anyone who has to fear for their life because of what they believe or want to believe in the way of serving God.

    That should only fall to God, not man. Serving God is a personal thing, and should be a personal thing between you and God. Because when it comes right down to it, only God knows the true feelings of our hearts.

    Thank you for trying to get me more Muslim readers, that would be great!! Seriously, I really want Muslims to read and comment on my blog. You know what I always say… communication is the key to unlocking misunderstanding. I think that Muslims have just as many misunderstandings of Christians and Americans as Americans and Christians do of Muslims.

    And as always God bless you and yours ๐Ÿ˜€

  4. Eagle Says:

    Oh and thanks for the link! ๐Ÿ™‚

  5. Stefan Says:

    “I think that Muslims have just as many misunderstandings of Christians and Americans as Americans and Christians do of Muslims.”

    its true and they are sometimes unable to differentiate between the American policies and the Americans as citizens.

    I think that Muslims have as many misunderstandings of Islam as Americans do of America ๐Ÿ˜€

  6. snatchmaker Says:

    “I think that Muslims have as many misunderstandings of Islam as Americans do of America”

    Yes: millions of Americans sneer and laugh at the idea that America is great. Look up the essays of the French pop philosopher Jean-Francois Revel about why American culture is great.

  7. Stefan Says:

    snatchmaker,

    I like the essays, I think that people are losing their perception of their identity and they need to study themselves before listening to the view of others.

    If you listened to the view of others, you will find two opposite different views and most probably you will choose one side and fight the other, and each side of them will consider themselves flawless and they will blame the other side for doing all the mistakes.

    In most cases you will find the truth in the middle, and you will fight the negatives of both sides and encourage their positives.

    peace

  8. Eagle Says:

    Amen I totally agree, the truth usally is in the middle. ๐Ÿ˜€

  9. Sukran Says:

    As a Muslim I would like to share my understanding on compulsion and apostasy in Islam.

    It is true that Qurโ€™an do not allow to punish apostates in this world. God is the only authority to judge the apostatesโ€™ situation hereinafter, however, philosophy of freedom of faith in the Qurโ€™an is not as same as indicated in United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights(1948), since Article 18 of the Declaration openly violates the Qurโ€™anic principle on apostasy:

    โ€œArticle 18- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.โ€

    In this regard, according to my understanding, Qurโ€™an, with a definite confident, is challenging to those who is thinking of to revert from Islam simply by not indicating any worldly punishment for this sin, similar to shirk. Apostasy is one of the three sins which Qurโ€™an specifies CANNOT BE FORGIVEN under any circumstances: APOSTASY, MURDER and SHIRK.
    In sum, a Muslim, either born as a Muslim or accepts Islam later in her/his life simply CANNOT revert from Islam once he/she become a Muslim.

    Qurโ€™an orders broad, but limited freedom of belief by excluding APOSTASY from this broad freedom without any doubt.

    Please do not be confused.

    APOSTASY is a wrongful path which ends at ETERNAL PUNISHMENT hereinafter same as SHIRK, without being left GODโ€™S MERCY AND FORGIVENESS ENDLESSLY.

    Unfortunately, Muslims still do not have enough confidence to think different than the Westerners and indicate their differences when it comes to human rights issues since they are unable to understand level of human rights provided in Qur’an when it is taken into consideration as a ‘whole’.

    Peace ๐Ÿ™‚

  10. alexonhere Says:

    The Messenger of Allah SalAllahu alaihi wasallam said:
    ู…ู† ุจุฏู‘ู„ ุฏูŠู†ู‡ ูุงู‚ุชู„ูˆู‡
    “Whoever changes his religion, kill him”. (Bukhari)

    This does NOT describe punishment in the hereafter but rather a specific injunction for Muslims to murder ex-Muslims on this earth.

    Sukran, how do you reconcile this with your belief that Allah is merciful and endlessly forgiving?

    Would a merciful and endlessly forgiving God instruct his followers, through Muhammad, to commit such butchery in his name?

  11. alexonhere Says:

    “Apostasy is one of the three sins which Qurโ€™an specifies CANNOT BE FORGIVEN under any circumstances: APOSTASY, MURDER and SHIRK.” — Sukran

    So the unforgiveable sin of murder is ok so long as it is committed against the unforgiveable sinners of apostasy and shirk?

  12. Eagle Says:

    Sukran,

    I am not even looking at ‘human rights’, though the principle is right. I am only speaking of the Quran and what it says about no compulsion.

    But it is as Stefan said, first the Quran does say there is no compulsion in Islam. For Stefan to proclaim that he is a Quran only Muslim he could be considered an apostate and in some countries be imprisoned or murdered.

    So in fact those whom do these things (the ones imprisoning) are the real criminals as far as Islam is concerned, aren’t they not?? If the Quran says there is no complusion, shouldn’t that include Muslims?? Personally since it is in the Quran, I should think that it would be for Muslims first and formost.

    As always peace to you ๐Ÿ˜€

  13. Eagle Says:

    Sadly it seems to me that some people use Islam against Muslims, and I am speaking of other Muslims. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  14. Stefan Says:

    alexonhere ,

    The Messenger of Allah SalAllahu alaihi wasallam said:
    ู…ู† ุจุฏู‘ู„ ุฏูŠู†ู‡ ูุงู‚ุชู„ูˆู‡
    โ€œWhoever changes his religion, kill himโ€. (Bukhari)

    I believe that Islam can only be found in the Quran and the messenger’s job to deliver the message.

    The teachings of the message delivered by the messenger doesn’t mention any punishments for the Apostate, because he is going to be the loser after all.

    ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ุชูŽุณูุจู‘ููˆุงู’ ุงู„ู‘ูŽุฐููŠู†ูŽ ูŠูŽุฏู’ุนููˆู†ูŽ ู…ูู† ุฏููˆู†ู ุงู„ู„ู‘ู‡ู ููŽูŠูŽุณูุจู‘ููˆุงู’ ุงู„ู„ู‘ู‡ูŽ ุนูŽุฏู’ูˆู‹ุง ุจูุบูŽูŠู’ุฑู ุนูู„ู’ู…ู ูƒูŽุฐูŽู„ููƒูŽ ุฒูŽูŠู‘ูŽู†ู‘ูŽุง ู„ููƒูู„ูู‘ ุฃูู…ู‘ูŽุฉู ุนูŽู…ูŽู„ูŽู‡ูู…ู’ ุซูู…ู‘ูŽ ุฅูู„ูŽู‰ ุฑูŽุจูู‘ู‡ูู… ู…ู‘ูŽุฑู’ุฌูุนูู‡ูู…ู’ ููŽูŠูู†ูŽุจูู‘ุฆูู‡ูู… ุจูู…ูŽุง ูƒูŽุงู†ููˆุงู’ ูŠูŽุนู’ู…ูŽู„ููˆู†ูŽ

    And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God without knowledge. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. 6:108

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=108

    ูˆูŽุฅูุฐูŽุง ุณูŽู…ูุนููˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽุบู’ูˆูŽ ุฃูŽุนู’ุฑูŽุถููˆุง ุนูŽู†ู’ู‡ู ูˆูŽู‚ูŽุงู„ููˆุง ู„ูŽู†ูŽุง ุฃูŽุนู’ู…ูŽุงู„ูู†ูŽุง ูˆูŽู„ูŽูƒูู…ู’ ุฃูŽุนู’ู…ูŽุงู„ููƒูู…ู’ ุณูŽู„ูŽุงู…ูŒ ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ู„ูŽุง ู†ูŽุจู’ุชูŽุบููŠ ุงู„ู’ุฌูŽุงู‡ูู„ููŠู†ูŽ

    And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say: “To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant.” 28:55

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=28&vid=55

    ูˆูŽู„ูŽุง ุชูุฌูŽุงุฏูู„ููˆุง ุฃูŽู‡ู’ู„ูŽ ุงู„ู’ูƒูุชูŽุงุจู ุฅูู„ู‘ูŽุง ุจูุงู„ู‘ูŽุชููŠ ู‡ููŠูŽ ุฃูŽุญู’ุณูŽู†ู ุฅูู„ู‘ูŽุง ุงู„ู‘ูŽุฐููŠู†ูŽ ุธูŽู„ูŽู…ููˆุง ู…ูู†ู’ู‡ูู…ู’ ูˆูŽู‚ููˆู„ููˆุง ุขู…ูŽู†ู‘ูŽุง ุจูุงู„ู‘ูŽุฐููŠ ุฃูู†ุฒูู„ูŽ ุฅูู„ูŽูŠู’ู†ูŽุง ูˆูŽุฃูู†ุฒูู„ูŽ ุฅูู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ูˆูŽุฅูู„ูŽู‡ูู†ูŽุง ูˆูŽุฅูู„ูŽู‡ููƒูู…ู’ ูˆูŽุงุญูุฏูŒ ูˆูŽู†ูŽุญู’ู†ู ู„ูŽู‡ู ู…ูุณู’ู„ูู…ููˆู†ูŽ

    And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say: “We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender.” 29:46

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=29&vid=46

    We believe that the message is the Truth and we must explain our point of view in a good manner and we have nothing to worry about from apostates but unfortunately the Bukharians who are using the name of Islam to kill anyone who disagree with their policies, exposing their man made religion is a fear for all of them, thats why they think that killing is the solution to avoid those who reject their teachings.

  15. alexonhere Says:

    Eagle, plenty of Muslims use Islam against Non-muslims too. This is the opening sentence from a Times of London article this week:

    “The three Indonesians sentenced to die for the 2002 Bali blasts say that they are ready to be executed and their only regret is that Muslims were among the 202 killed in the attack.”

    This is perfectly consistent with Islamic teachings that degrade the value of Non-muslims to almost subhuman worth.

  16. Sukran Says:

    โ€œWhoever changes his religion, kill himโ€. (Bukhari)

    ‘Sukran, how do you reconcile this with your belief that Allah is merciful and endlessly forgiving?

    Would a merciful and endlessly forgiving God instruct his followers, through Muhammad, to commit such butchery in his name?’

    Salaam alexonhere,

    It is simple: I DO NOT believe Muhammad ordered for killing apostates OPENLY OPPOSE to the Qur’an.

    As you have already indicated it was said by Bukhari, not Muhammad.

    Muhammad prohibited to be written his sayings, because he knew there were going to be numerous of mistakes and misunderstandings which have been taking hard to correct for centuries.

    No doubt Allah is merciful and forgiven, but humans are not…

    Peace,

  17. Eagle Says:

    Sukran,

    Where does it show that Muhammad prohibited his sayings to be written??

  18. Sukran Says:

    “Where does it show that Muhammad prohibited his sayings to be written??”

    I was waiting for this question, it came sooner than I expected. ๐Ÿ™‚

    In Bukhari’s hadiths of course…

    It would not make any difference, whether or not Prophet Muhammad prohibited the Muslims to write his sayings. My opinion on hadiths is not another hadith. I just cannot believe any other source which is violatin the Qur’an.

    Did you erase my post about so-called Armenian genocide? If you did could you send a copy of it if you have? I really worked hard on it, i want to use somewhere else.:)

    sukran96@gmail.com

    I am sorry, I missed you prior post btw: “If the Quran says there is no complusion, shouldnโ€™t that include Muslims?? ”

    I definitely agree with you. I can assure you there is NO WORLDLY punishment for apostasy since it is huge, big, extreme challenge for a Muslim against God’s will.

    Thanks,

  19. Eagle Says:

    I haven’t erased anything, it seems I posted a comment under it, at least I think I did. Let me do some searching and see what I can find.

    The reason I asked about the sayings of Muhammad is because I am going to do a post on Stefan and your website and beliefs, I would love to add that too it. ๐Ÿ˜€

  20. alexonhere Says:

    “As you have already indicated it was said by Bukhari, not Muhammad.” — Sukran

    Ok, it’s good to hear that you and Stefan do follow Bukhari but is he not considered (along with Muslim) the most authoritative commentator on the Qur’an and the life of Muhammad?

    And as such, does his meticuously reconstructed collection of traditions not carry tremendous influence over millions of Muslims still today?

    And would you admit that without further explanation and commentary (such as given in the ahadith etc.) the Qur’an is often confusing and unclear?

    Stefan, you can chime in too if you like of course.

  21. snatchmaker Says:

    Sukran wrote: “I just cannot believe any other source which is violatin the Qurโ€™an.”

    Such Koran-only Muslims constitute a tiny minority. The vast majority of Muslims believe, through their tradition, that the Koran requires hermeneutics and exegesis — and that’s exactly what the Sunna is for Sunni Muslims (approximately 85% of world Muslims), and Shia have their own exegetical/hermeneutical literature. The Koran by itself is apparently too difficult to use as sola scriptura. I wonder if Sukran prays 5 times a day — that is not in the Koran; only the Hadith.

    However, even Koran-only Muslims have a thorny problem: the Koran itself is full of unjust and dangerous crap.

  22. alexonhere Says:

    I meant to say of course…

    “Ok, itโ€™s good to hear that you and Stefan do NOT follow Bukhari”

    Excellent points as usual snatchmaker. I’d like to hear the answer to the 5 prayers question too.

  23. Eagle Says:

    alexonhere and snatchmaker,

    I believe I can give you the short answer in regards to whether Sukran and Stefan pray 5 times a day, or rather believe that the Quran teachs them too. No

  24. Sukran Says:

    Eagle said;
    “The reason I asked about the sayings of Muhammad is because I am going to do a post on Stefan and your website and beliefs, I would love to add that too it.”

    Thank you Eagle for your support and fnding my post.:)

    alexonhere said;
    November 2nd, 2007 at 12:47 am
    “ok, itโ€™s good to hear that you and Stefan do follow Bukhari but is he not considered (along with Muslim) the most authoritative commentator on the Qurโ€™an and the life of Muhammad?”

    Yes, he was/is.

    “And as such, does his meticuously reconstructed collection of traditions not carry tremendous influence over millions of Muslims still today? ”

    yes, that is the problem.

    “And would you admit that without further explanation and commentary (such as given in the ahadith etc.) the Qurโ€™an is often confusing and unclear? ”

    No, Qur’an is an clear and open book. But, our concious is not clear enough to see how clear and direct it is.

    Qur’an gives its reader more freedom than it has thought as long as reader has enough confidence while keeping his/her conscious clear and open. Qur’an indicates numerous of sugestions how the reader can keep his/her conscious clear: Obeying the rules stated in the Qur’an.

    snatcmakes said;

    “I wonder if Sukran prays 5 times a day โ€” that is not in the Koran; only the Hadith.”

    Number of prays is not that much important. Main reason for praying is to make available to remember Allah as much as possible during the rush hours in a day and night. I feel more uncomfort when I consider myself I make gossip about someone than how many times I pray in a day.

    “However, even Koran-only Muslims have a thorny problem: the Koran itself is full of unjust and dangerous crap.”

    I do not agree. Qur’an has to be read as a whole, as a live organism, as a Book beyond the time and dimension we are aware of right now. So, while our conscious makes improvement we will understand more and more from Qur’an.

    It is interesting to observe that people who has Christian and Western or even ateist background show ‘sometimes’ better understanding and awareness about Qur’an than a traditional Muslim, because their conscious are not foggy with hadiths and sources other than Qur’an.

    Thanks everyone for their sincere contribution.

    Peace,

  25. Sukran Says:

    sorry snatchmaker, i misspelled your nickname.

  26. Eagle Says:

    Always my pleasure Sukran, and thank you for your continued help and insight both here and on your own blog. Rest assured that you are always appreciated here by me! ๐Ÿ˜€ As is Stefan!
    May your week be blessed.

  27. alexonhere Says:

    Sukran, thank you. No further questions at this time. Alexon

  28. Stefan Says:

    Thanks Eagle ๐Ÿ˜€

    Where does it show that Muhammad prohibited his sayings to be written?

    Among the books of hadith regarded as ‘Sahih’ (verified to be authentic), we read the following:

    Abi Said Al-Khudary said that the prophet said : “Do not write down anything from me except the Quran.”

    [Sahih Muslim Part 18, page 229, also Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171]

    Abu huraira said that the prophet said, “The ‘Ummam’ (nations/peoples) that preceded you have gone astray when they wrote books and upheld them besides God’s scripture”.

    (Ahmed Ibn Hanbal).

    The same message is documented in other Islamic references of repute:

    Abu Huraira said : The messenger of God came to us while we were writing his sayings and said: “What is it you are writing?” we said “sayings (hadith) we hear from you messenger of God” he said, “A book other than God’s book?” then Abu Huraira said, “so we gathered what we had written and burnt it all”.

    (Taqyeed Al-Ilm, by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdady) also (Oloom Al-Hadith, by Ibn Salah).

    .

    “The Koran itself is full of unjust and dangerous crap”.

    snatchmaker

    Only when you read the terrorist guide to the Quran.

    Firstly, the teachings of the Quran have been distorted in the Arab and Western world ever since the time of Muhammad.They take what they claim to be “the Messenger’s words” out of context to justify their own personal thoughts, deeds, hypotheses and idiosyncrasies.

    Secondly, when it comes to religious fanaticism, it seems to me that it stems from a literal or narrow understanding of religious text rather than a comprehensive and figurative view.

    The purpose and aim of any true scriptural text or Spiritual Teachers is to bring about a revolution in the individual’s character and vision by integrating his mind and educating his intellect.

    You will never understand the teachings of God unless you study the text “itself”, and I have all the time to answer any of your questions.

    As with regards to your use of the word “crap” to describe a religion followed by millions. is both disrespectful and narrow minded.

    One should refrain from using such derogatory and negative language in platforms that encourage tolerance and respect.

    Peace 8)

  29. Eagle Says:

    Thank you again Stefan, I will be using that in an upcoming post. I trust you and Samson are doing well ๐Ÿ˜€ Have a blessed week!!

  30. Eagle Says:

    BTW Stefan,

    How do so many Muslims justify giving so much heed to everything but the Quran when we read what Muhammad himself said?? Do you have any ideas??

  31. Stefan Says:

    “How do so many Muslims justify giving so much heed to everything but the Quran”

    “according to most scholars and researchers, this hadith was specific to the time when the Qur’an was still being written. The reason behind this command was to prevent any risk of confusing the Qur’an with Hadith. However, once the revelation was completed and it was certain that no more verses were going to be descended, it was permissible; and even an obligation to write down the Hadith to preserve it throughout time, because, had the memorizers of the Hadith passed away before writing it down, the Hadiths could have disappeared.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#Controversy

    Surah 6

    The majority of those on Earth they will lead you (Muhammad) astray because they follow conjecture and what they have found their fathers doing!

    “What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided ?”

    “Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. (6:114)

    And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. (6:115)

    And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (6:116)

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=114
    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=115
    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=116

    Those who have set up partners will Say: “If God wished, we would not have set up partners, nor would have our fathers, nor would we have forbidden anything.” Those before them lied in the same way, until they tasted Our might. Say: “Do you have any knowledge to bring out to us? You only follow conjecture, you only guess.” (6:148)

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=148

    “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.”

    It seems to me that so many Muslims are following the footsteps of their fathers without understanding, they are no better than their forefathers and its true and normal according to the Quran to follow others rather than God.

    And if they are told: “Follow what God has sent down,” they Say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!” What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided? (2:170)

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=170

    And if they are told: “Follow that which God has sent down.” They Say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.” What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell? (31:21)

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=31&vid=21

  32. Stefan Says:

    two ??

    What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

    What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

  33. Eagle Says:

    Thank you very much Stefan ๐Ÿ˜€

  34. alexonhere Says:

    Stefan, you write: “Secondly, when it comes to religious fanaticism, it seems to me that it stems from a literal or narrow understanding of religious text rather than a comprehensive and figurative view.”

    The Qur’an is claimed to be the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad. Are you denying this claim? Is the Qur’an more like the general gist of Allah? Are you not flirting with apostasy?

    “Only when you read the terrorist guide to the Quran.”

    Well, they’re not making it up. Sure they cherry pick the verses which suit their purposes, but a lot of verses DO suit their purposes (the dehumanization and violence towards Non-believers, etc). Unfortunately those verses are usually the later ones too which brings in the whole abrogation argument which is to their advantage also. No?

    alexon

  35. alexonhere Says:

    Actually, I said it better before:

    “And more to the point; Supremacist Islam also does not exist in a vacuum. It comes from somewhere. Robert Spencer isn’t making up those verses which preach the superiority of Muslims and the inferiority of all others. And the exhortations to violence which accompany those verses. Are the Islamists making up those passages they cite to justify their atrocities? No. Elements of Islam definitely do inspire and advocate the kind of violence we see the radicals engaging in. How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole?” — alexon

  36. Stefan Says:

    Mr Alexonhere,

    You have to understand that the verses of the Quran were used to command Mohamed and the Believers all the time, I mean when its time of peace and when its time of war.

    Every verse of the Quran is related to a certain specific historical incident.

    The Qurโ€™an is claimed to be the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad. Are you denying this claim? Is the Qurโ€™an more like the general gist of Allah? Are you not flirting with apostasy?

    The Qurโ€™an is the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad

    The Quran is a condensed non-abrogated balanced message, and at the same time its a poem, its not a 1 2 3 book and you have to read it carefully and in context.

    Any verse abrogated or quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Quran.

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/war-in-the-quran/

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/10/21/not-a-single-verse-of-the-quran-is-abrogated/

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/abrogation-the-biggest-lie-against-quran/

    but a lot of verses DO suit their purposes (the dehumanization and violence towards Non-believers, etc).

    It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.

    It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Quran for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context.

    These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

    “How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole???”

    Do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them __ Stefan

  37. Stefan Says:

    Mr Alexonhere,

    You have to understand that the verses of the Quran were used to command Mohamed and the Believers all the time, I mean when its time of peace and when its time of war.

    Every verse of the Quran is related to a certain specific historical incident.

    The Qurโ€™an is claimed to be the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad. Are you denying this claim? Is the Qurโ€™an more like the general gist of Allah? Are you not flirting with apostasy?

    The Qurโ€™an is the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad

    The Quran is a condensed non-abrogated balanced message, and at the same time its a poem, its not a 1 2 3 book and you have to read it carefully and in context.

    Any verse abrogated or quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Quran.

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/war-in-the-quran/

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/10/21/not-a-single-verse-of-the-quran-is-abrogated/

    http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/abrogation-the-biggest-lie-against-quran/

    but a lot of verses DO suit their purposes (the dehumanization and violence towards Non-believers, etc).

    It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.

    It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Quran for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context.

    These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

    “How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole???”

    Do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them __ Stefan

  38. Eagle Says:

    Stefan,

    Can I ask what you do for a living? Your very articulate, and know your stuff. Are you a teacher??

    Personally I consider myself to be a perpetual student. ๐Ÿ˜€

  39. alexonhere Says:

    “It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Quran for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions.” — Stefan

    This “Everybody Does It” argument doesn’t hold water.

    “I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context.” — Stefan

    That’s true, so why aren’t Christians attacking Muslims or Jews or Buddhists etc. all over the world today?

    First you point to the past by saying: “These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews.”

    And that is an often heard argument, harkening back to the crusades. First of all, none of us really know what went on with the Crusades, who started them, what the motivations were. But I’ll grant you that the Bible probably was used to justify some of those military expeditions to liberate the holy lands. Still, we’re talking 1,000 years ago or so back when everyone was pretty unenlightened, the earth was flat, ignorance widespread. etc. You anticipate this by mentioning contemporary examples:

    “Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.”

    No, Nazis didn’t use the Bible against Jews. Nazis used racial supremacy against Jews. Find me ANY passage in the Bible, Old or New, that says anything about the racial supremacy of Christians over Jews. Good Luck! Yes there has been historical animosity of some Christians towards Jews due to what was done to Christ but the Nazis only manipulated that in an indirect way. Hitler despised Christianity (and rather admired Islam by the way).

    And your other two examples (Serbians and Zionists) are even less convincing. Undoubtedly there is some sectarian tension in both conflicts (the Balkans and Israel/Palestine) but obviously nothing in the Bible tells Christians to kill or subjugate Muslims. Unfortunately the Qur’an is not as generous. “People of the Book” do fare better than polytheists for example, but the Qur’an still instructs to deal harshly with them until they are thoroughly subdued (and pay the tax!). So if anything, the Qur’an is misused more against the Christians of Serbia and the Jews of Israel than vice-versa.

  40. alexonhere Says:

    “Do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them” — Stefan

    If your greatest concern is the defamation of Islam then your above statement is misdirected. Militant Muslims are the ones defaming Islam by their murderous crimes against innocents; Christian schoolgirls beheaded in Indonesia, Russian schoolchildren massacred in Beslan, Buddhist monks beheaded in S. Thailand, and yes civilian Muslims (but inferior black ones) slaughtered in Darfur. And I almost forgot (such is the scale of crimes committed in the name of Islam) there were 3,000 American civilians murdered on September 11, 2001 in New York City too (or was that an ‘inside job’ by Zionists as many Muslims seem to believe?)

    THAT is where the worst defamation of Islam is coming from!

  41. Stefan Says:

    Thank you Alexon for your concern
    โ€œDo not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame themโ€ โ€” Stefan

    Find me ANY passage in the Quran, that says anything about the racial supremacy over Christians or Jews. Good Luck!

    “I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context”

    Verses from the Old Testament

    Deuteronomy 7

    1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nationsโ€”the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles [b] and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%207;&version=31;

    Deuteronomy 20

    10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
    16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] themโ€”the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesโ€”as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2020;&version=31;

    Numbers 31

    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031%20;&version=31;

    The following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples: (The New Testament)

    Luke 19

    26’I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over themโ€”bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019;&version=31;

    Matthew 10

    34″Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
    ” ‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010;&version=31;

    It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context

  42. Stefan Says:

    Eagle,

    I’m an architect and a DJ ๐Ÿ˜€

  43. Stefan Says:

    “The Qurโ€™an still instructs to deal harshly with them until they are thoroughly subdued (and pay the tax!)”

    This is the only Quranic verse that enjoins struggle against people of the book if they refused to pay the tax/fine.

    Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly. (9:29)

    http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=9&vid=29

    “Jizya” is derived from the root “Jaza” or “compensate”. Arabs usually say the phrase “Jaza, yajzi” which means “compensate” or ‘reward” if a person rewards another for the service rendered by the latter. “Jizya” is a derived term in the form of “ficla” from “Mujazรฃ” which is the noun “compensation”, meaning “a sum of money given in return for protection”. Ibn Al-Mutaraz said: “It is derived from “โ€™idjzรฃ” or “substitute” or “sufficiency” because it suffices as a substitute for the “dhimmi’s embracement of Islam

    Al-Jami’ Le’ Ahkaam el Quraan (114/8), Al-Mugharab Fi Tarteeb Al-Mu’rab (143/1), see Mukhtarel-Sahaah (44/1)

    Jizya/Tax in Pre-Islamic Times

    Romans 13

    Submission to the Authorities

    1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013;&version=31;

    Islam was not the first religion to pre-ordain the Jizya and Muslims were not the first nation to levy the Jizya unto the peoples subdued by them. Victorious nations throughout history have persisted in levying the Jizya on their conquered subjects. Examples of such an action are abundant in human history.
    This is reflected in the New Testament when Christ(P) told Simon the following:

    Matthew 17

    24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax[b]?”
    25″Yes, he does,” he replied.
    When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxesโ€”from their own sons or from others?”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017;&version=31;

    The New Testament considers the payment of Jizya to the ruler as a legislative right

    Citizens who pay the tax are permitted to practice their faith and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy as well as being entitled to protection from outside aggression and being exempted from military service amongst numerous other exemptions to levies upon other citizens.

  44. Eagle Says:

    Stefan,

    A DJ?? Please explain before I fall off my chair laughing!!! ๐Ÿ˜€
    HAHAHAHAHA
    A DJ here is one who plays songs on the radio or in a club!! You never cease to amaze me! ๐Ÿ˜€

  45. Stefan Says:

    yes Eagle, I used to spin records in clubs and bars but know I play for friends, weddings, birthdays and house parties.

    I used to play with famous International Djs in my country and i was famous for being selected for the closing session at huge events ๐Ÿ˜€

    But i don’t love the club scene as I was before and i like to play in a drug-free environment so I have decided to keep it as a hobby and only to people I know because I don’t like to be involved in such a scene.

    Peace and thanks for asking

  46. Eagle Says:

    You never cease to amaze me ๐Ÿ˜€

  47. alexonhere Says:

    Stefan,

    You went to some trouble cutting and pasting all those nasty Old Testament passages on to here for nothing. I had already agreed with you that there are violent passages in the Old Testament.

    So once again the question becomes (since you didn’t answer it the first time); So why arenโ€™t Christians attacking (terrorizing) Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Polytheists etc. all over the world today? In other words, why has Christianity largely overcome it’s intolerant and violent scriptural passages, and Islam hasn’t? I think it’s because Muslims are straightjacketed by saying that every word of the Qur’an is the literal word of Allah himself. There is no “wiggle room” there whatsoever for reform. In order to reform, one must first recognize that something needs reforming.

    Stefan, I submit to you that the violent passages from the Old Testament you cite DO reflect badly on early Christianity and have caused some problems and afflictions on others in the past. Am I “defaming” Christianity by saying so? Of course not. Do you similarly REJECT violent passages of the Qur’an which have inspired abuse and violence towards Non-believers? Passages which have caused pain and death for millions of Non-muslims overtaken by Islamic expansion. You reject those passages, right?! please answer.

  48. alexonhere Says:

    Stefan, Regarding the Jizya, you write:

    “Jizya” is derived from the root “Jaza” or “compensate”. Arabs usually say the phrase “Jaza, yajzi” which means “compensate” or ‘reward” if a person rewards another for the service rendered by the latter. “Jizya” is a derived
    term in the form of “ficla” from “Mujazรฃ” which is the noun “compensation”, meaning “a sum of money given in return for protection”. Ibn Al-Mutaraz said: “It is derived from “‘idjzรฃ” or “substitute” or “sufficiency” because
    it suffices as a substitute for the “dhimmi’s embracement of Islam”

    Wow, you make this sound very reasonable; Do you agree with it?!

    In America we too have a group that offers “protection” for money. It’s called the Mafia! It’s called EXTORTION!
    Pay Up! or else….

    All of which begs the question: Why would
    protection be needed if there is truly “no compulsion in religion” as touted in early Qur’an ?

    Frankly this Mafia-like burden / threat leveed against similar believers (people of the book) does not reflect well on Islam. Even worse though is the abuse (and violence which springs from that abuse) directed towards Polytheists, Atheists, Pantheists, Animists, etc. These People of No Book are constantly dehumanized and demonized throughout the
    Qur’an. “Kill Them Wherever You Find Them” and the like. Is that ok too?

    Once again you respond by justifying it with other historical examples; the “Everybody Does It” defense. Just once I would like to see you stop making excuses and actually REJECT something unjust in the Qur’an. Instead you start in with some obtuse passage in the New Testament about “If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” So What?! It’s not even close to comparable.
    Islam has built in to it a highly organized, complex SYSTEM for Mafia-like protection racket payments to be paid in very specific ways with very specific terms as you yourself touch on above. But please don’t think that people don’t see through what you write in conclusion here:

    “Citizens who pay the tax are permitted to practice their faith and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy as well as being entitled to protection from outside aggression and being exempted from military service amongst numerous other exemptions to levies upon other citizens.”

    First of all, the permission to practice “other” faiths incur MANY restrictions such as (with Christianity) when a Church may or not be repaired and prohibitions on new Church construction. Plus many more such restrictions and prohibitions.

    But this one takes the cake: “…as well as being entitled to protection from outside aggression” Should I laugh or cry at this evasion of the truth? The “aggression” jizya “protects” against is from the one offering such “protection”, exactly like the “protection” so generously offered by the Mafia. It’s an offer of subjugation and 2nd class citizenship that you DHIMMIS can’t refuse. OR ELSE! “Outside Aggression” My Ass! Excuse my language but this one made me angry.

    Christianity has nothing even remotely comparable to such an organized system of threats and subjugation.

    Stefan, the country you enjoy life in isn’t even Muslim majority is it? Are you in the Czech Republic? Beautiful Prague? Slovakia? Bratislava? Stefan is not a Muslim name. Are you a “revert”? just curious.

  49. alexonhere Says:

    Stefan, do you agree or disagree with the following:

    I would like to see Muslims worldwide acknowledge the violent and supremacist aspects of their tradition, renounce them definitively, and work to formulate ways in which Muslims and non-Muslims can live together in peace as equals on an indefinite basis. I’d like to see ulama worldwide formulate new laws that establish the equality of dignity of women with men, abolish the commodification of women, and safeguard the equality of rights of all people by abolishing the dhimma I’d like to see ulama worldwide embrace the freedom of conscience and freedom of religion forthrightly and without equivocation.

    Agree? Disagree?

  50. Stefan Says:

    “So why arenโ€™t Christians attacking (terrorizing) Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Polytheists etc. all over the world today?”

    Muslims are abusing their religious text more than anyone all over the world today. YES

    “Do you similarly REJECT violent passages of the Qurโ€™an which have inspired abuse and violence towards Non-believers?”

    How can I reject a part of the book because it was abused,
    I accept all verses including the “violent” ones but i consider them verses of War at the time of the release of the Quran and its not applicable in everyday life, same as the verses in the bible.

    “Stefan, the country you enjoy life in isnโ€™t even Muslim majority is it? Are you in the Czech Republic? Beautiful Prague? Slovakia? Bratislava? Stefan is not a Muslim name. Are you a โ€œrevertโ€? just curious.”

    My name is not stefan and I’m living in an Arab country.

    Stefan was a famous actor in my country in 40s and 50s

    I would like to see Muslims worldwide acknowledge the violent and supremacist aspects of their tradition, renounce them definitively, and work to formulate ways in which Muslims and non-Muslims can live together in peace as equals on an indefinite basis. Iโ€™d like to see ulama worldwide formulate new laws that establish the equality of dignity of women with men, abolish the commodification of women, and safeguard the equality of rights of all people by abolishing the dhimma Iโ€™d like to see ulama worldwide embrace the freedom of conscience and freedom of religion forthrightly and without equivocation.

    I Agree and thank you

  51. Stefan Says:

    “The real beginning for Naguib Al Rihani was in 1916 when he joined the famous actor, Stefan Rosty, to work in โ€œDe Roseโ€ Casino.”

    http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Arts&Culture/Theatre/TheatrePioneers/070502000000000006.htm

  52. Eagle Says:

    Alex,

    Please try and not be rude. Secondly, have you read any of Stefan’s blog? Your preaching to the choir.

  53. alexonhere Says:

    I haven’t read Stefan’s blog so it’s true that I may well be making erroneous assumptions about some of what he says here. I wasn’t trying to be rude, it was just his comment which seemed to be justifying the jizya system which set me off somewhat because it seemed such an obvious deception to say that such payments protected against “outside” aggression. However, I can see that he was probably not describing his personal view but rather how it (jizya) was set forth and justified when implemented. Fair enough. sorry if I was rude.

  54. alexonhere Says:

    Stefan, sorry if I was rude. I generally don’t click on links because I like to see how one argues on their own merits instead of linking to other sites and other opinions. What I didn’t realize was that you were linking to your own blog. In that case I will click on it and read what you have to say there.

    And yes it was silly of me to assume that Stefan was your real name. I was just getting carried away after that one thing set me off in our discussion about jizya.

    You write: “How can I reject a part of the book because it was abused, I accept all verses including the โ€œviolentโ€ ones but i consider them verses of War at the time of the release of the Quran and its not applicable in everyday life, same as the verses in the bible.”

    Ok, fair enough.

  55. Eagle Says:

    Alex,
    I noticed that you now see that Stefan’s linked to his blog. The others were to a site which shows numerous translations of different Quran verses, you might find it very interesting.

    It seems to me that if you really want a question answered, you would look at the answer in its entirety and not bits of it that suit your pre-concieved idea on what YOU think, Stefan must be thinking.

    I’m not sure, but in regards to Jizya, it is my understanding that, that system was used back in the day, but it is not in practice now. But make no mistake, if the terrorist get their way, they would bring it back, if they even allowed non Muslims to live. One other thing you can be sure of, people like Stefan would be target number one of those same people. Those people hate other Muslims even more than non-Muslims. They feel that unless they tow the 7th century line to the letter, they are an apostate and deserve nothing but death.

    You should really try and understand that not all Muslims think alike. They are as varied as Christians. Most of them just want the same things that you want, to make a living and take care of their family.

    I have met Muslims from every sect, from conservative to liberal, and in my journey I have found a broad range of beliefs. Only the radicals are ridged. A lot of Muslims will tell you that they may be Muslim but they also have a brain. They are a joy to meet, and no different than you or I. They just worship God differently than what you may be accustomed too. Granted there are some bad actors out there, but there are more good Muslims than bad.

    The best way I can describe it is this; Have you ever met or been told about a Cop who was a complete and total jerk? Who used his position of authority to load it over others?? Did it at first make you think that all Cops were aholes?? The, “one bad apple spoils the whole bushel” thing??

    Have you read any of my posts here?? You have a powerful tool in your hands right now. You can use it to learn, and to grow. You can use it to change hearts and minds. Or you can use it to be condescending, hateful or hurtful. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you are, I’m just saying the possiblities.

    From my personal experience in the last 8 months or so, I have grown and learned. I have spent a great deal of time dealing with Islamist on their blogs to use their comments on my blog. But I have also met and became friends with a lot of good, God fearing, caring, and open minded Muslims. I have also met a fair share of close minded and bigoted non-Muslims.

    It all goes to prove one thing… If we actually look below the surface, if Muslims in Muslim nations were given the freedom to live how they please… There wouldn’t be that much difference then in the West. There would be those who are devout, and those who are not. There would be those who choose to dress according to what they feel their scripture calls for, and those who don’t.

    We really aren’t that different when it comes right down to it. Most people just want to do their thing, free of strife. There are a lot of misconceptions about Muslims, and Muslims have a lot of misconceptions about Christians and the West. We can go on the attack, or we can go into explanations. Its all how you go about it in your heart. What is your true objective. Mine is to build brotherhood. I try and save the attack for the people who deserve it and even then I don’t attack. Read,

    https://eaglespearlsofwisdom.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/a-question-of-righteousness/

    Life is too short. Now that I have rambled on and on, I hope you can understand where I am coming from personally. And understand I am not making judgments of you, I am merely giving my opinion on the issue of Islam, the West and Islamist.
    ๐Ÿ˜€

  56. alexonhere Says:

    Geez Eagle, I thought I was pretty conciliatory in my last two posts. I even apologized, sort of. I admitted that I was making too many assumptions and explained why I didn’t click on the links previously provided. I’ll re-read your post more carefully later on when i have chance to make a fuller reply. I’m no longer making any assumption that Stefan or Sukran are adversaries so please don’t assume that I’m being adversarial any more. I’ve had chance to read one thread on Stefan’s blog and found it and the comments very interesting.

    Alexon

  57. alexonhere Says:

    “I have met Muslims from every sect, from conservative to liberal, and in my journey I have found a broad range of beliefs. Only the radicals are ridged. A lot of Muslims will tell you that they may be Muslim but they also have a brain. They are a joy to meet, and no different than you or I. They just worship God differently than what you may be accustomed too. Granted there are some bad actors out there, but there are more good Muslims than bad.” — Eagle

    Eagle, I don’t disagree with you about this. My thing, unlike some on jihadwatch, has never been to attack Muslims as Muslims per-se, but rather to look ever more closely at the religion of Islam and see what is inspiring *some* (too many) Muslims to spread terror in the world in the name of Allah (and yes I fully realize that the terrorist Muslims also target and kill other Muslims who they deem to be insufficiently pure).

    One thing I do notice though is that many Muslims take any critical examination of Islam or Muhammad personally, as an attack on them personally. In the extreme examples you see signs at protests, such as the cartoon rage protests, which say things like “Behead Those Who Insult Islam!” Obviously that is the extreme view but to a lesser degree there is that reflex in many Muslims to place the Qur’an, Muhammad, and Islam itself, beyond reach, above criticism, outside of examination. I think it comes from the absolute finality which Islam professes to be. The absolute words of Allah as set forth in the Qur’an, and the Perfect Man (perfect example) in Muhammad. Absolute Truth and the Perfect Man does not leave much wiggle room for reform. I think this explains why Islam can be so rigid and many Muslims (no, not a majority) so fanatical.

    I reject the campaign of religious exceptionalism which seeks to shield Islam from the kind of critical examination which is routine in the rationalist west. Labeling critics as “Islamophobes” for example. Criticism can be very uncomfortable sometimes but it is also an agent for change which can be a very positive force too. Change and reform can be painful. Islam can’t be reformed until there is an acknowledgment that something needs reforming. Christianity DID undergo painful change and reform over many centuries. Much of that was due to withering examination and criticism which came from the outside. It didn’t destroy Christianity but actually improved it.

    Having said all that, I don’t think that I was being harsh at all towards Stefan in our opening exchanges. I was pursuing some questions about why Islam seems to be a source for such violence in the world today, unlike other religions. I certainly wasn’t being harsh personally towards him. I was basically asking “What is it about Islam and the Qur’an and Muhammad (and other aspects of the faith) which inspires many of Islam’s most committed adherents to engage in violence today when other faiths do not inspire such extremism?*

    Stefan seemed to not like it. He did engage the arguments which is always appreciated, but then he admonished me:

    “Do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them.”

    So he accused me of trying to defame Islam. Not much different from calling me an “Islamophobe”. To me that’s an effort to silence criticism. That’s when our exchange started to become more adversarial, though without personal rancor. I did reply that the real defamation of Islam was coming from what Islamic Extremists are doing, not from me. Stefan ignored that point.

    I’m certainly not the final word on the subtleties of Islamic criticism or explication, but the Wahabbis, the Bukharians, and other extremists, certainly ARE well-versed in all those subtleties, and THEY are the ones finding all kinds of explicit material in the Qur’an, Muhammad’s example, the traditions, etc, to justify what they preach and the violence they foment in Allah’s name. Stefan can argue that they are wrong, and I hope he’s right, I truly do, but it’s far from clear that Stefan and other moderate voices are winning the battle for hearts and minds in the Muslim world. Extremism seems to be increasing, not decreasing. And if that is the case then the rest of the Non-islamic world will need to rise up to meet and defeat the threat.

    There’s a simple name for it: Self-Defense.

  58. Eagle Says:

    Do you think that we can express ourselves without accusations?? Do you think that we can ask and answer questions without offense?? I was merely pointing out the way I try and do business.

    I do, and that is what I try to do, even when talking to the source of our troubles Islamists. Maybe I won’t change that person’s heart, but what about someone who may come after.

    No one will listen to anything you have to say if you put that person on the defensive. If they think you are attacking them or their religion, they will turn you off. On my other blogs I have more Muslim readers and I go to their blogs and ask questions as well. Its a process of building trust and communication.

    A lot of Muslims think that since Muslim nations are Muslim, that the West is Christian, and that the Christian faith allows loose morals. It is simple stuff like that, misconceptions, misunderstandings.

    When I started writing, I had Muslims coming out of the woodwork, their first thought was I was attacking Islam, no matter how many times I told them I wasn’t and was merely pointing out the words of the radicals. THAT, is what I am talking about.

    It has taken some time for these same people to understand where I am coming from. And even then, sometimes there is misunderstanding. It takes time and patiences. They have the radicals telling them that we are at war against Islam as a whole. I am doing everything in my power to show that, that isn’t true. Which is why my blog has just as many posts against bigots as it does against Islamists.

    The bad thing is, I was attacked more from non-Muslims, than Muslims who thought I was attacking their religion.

  59. alexonhere Says:

    Eagle, I can’t write much more tonight. Busy day tomorrow. I’ll just write this one response to the last thing you wrote:

    “The bad thing is, I was attacked more from non-Muslims, than Muslims who thought I was attacking their religion.”

    I saw a little of that but didn’t read much of it. As I’ve said before, there are all types who post at jihadwatch. Apparently you had some of the less thoughtful ones come over and heap abuse on you for no good reason. Definitely a counterproductive approach and I can see why it upset you.

    Not to defend that but one thing that happens there (at jihadwatch) is that day after day after day we read about all the crimes committed by fanatical Muslims in the world and the anger does build and build and build from within. It creates a desire to lash out, to lash back, to put a stop to the crimes and injustice, and to punish the perpetrators. Obviously that’s not possible because most of the crimes and criminals are beyond our reach. So the anger gets transferred to those within our reach who seem to be making excuses for the criminals, or at least not condemning them and fighting against them vigorously enough. I’m *not* saying that you fit that description. I don’t think you do. But apparently some anti-jihadists misunderstood where you were coming from, felt attacked, and took out their anger on you. Unfortunate, wrong-headed, and counterproductive, to say the least. Nor a representative sample of the anti-jihadist movement as a whole. I’m not sure you said this in so many words but you are right that it’s harder to make friends than it is to make enemies when this kind of life or death topic is at hand.

    You’ve ventured onto dangerous ground and I respect you for that. You’re in the proverbial ‘no man’s land’ in many ways. But you also have to expect crossfire there in the perceived middle, justified or not. You probably already have thicker skin than when you started this project. You’ll definitely need it because you’re basically mediating between warring worlds. Not for the faint-hearted. I wish you the best Eagle. Good Night.

  60. Eagle Says:

    First, it didn’t happen on JihadWatch. It happened when someone from JihadWatch decided that because I thought differently than him, and asked him repeatedly not to assault and disrespect my Muslim readers, that he should ‘rally the troops’ and have them come to my blogs and attack me.

    The point is this, I write about the bad things that some Muslims do as well, but I also cover the things done to them and I acknowledge whole heartily that it is a minority of Muslims who are the problem, not the entire religion.

    “A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf” I try and have some balance. This is not a hate Islam blog, those are a dime a dozen. I am about communication and brotherly love. I’m about learning and teaching. Will it make a difference, I don’t have a clue?? But if it changes one heart, then it is worth it.

    Thank you for your well wishes ๐Ÿ˜€

  61. alexonhere Says:

    “First, it didnโ€™t happen on JihadWatch.”

    I know. I saw a little of it, enough of it, when I first came here.
    But since that wasn’t why I came here I tried to ignore it. Of course you didn’t have that luxury this being your blog, so I could understand why it angered you.

    Peace!

  62. awake Says:

    alexonhere,

    As you already know, there is a much larger group of hard-line Islamists, with traditional literal interpretations to the mandates of the Qur’an , than Eagle or any supposed moderate Muslim, will care to admit to. The “tiny minority of extremists” defense is baseless and valueless.

    At best from moderates, you will get a concession that it is Islamism, a political ideological movement that is responsible for terror rather than Islam itself, or anything contained in the canonical texts of the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira.

    What I find most striking a contradiction is that moderates who are progressive, peaceful and tolerant are equally averse to questioning or even studying the Qur’an.

    The reality is simple. For example, let us use Qur’an 9:29:

    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    No Muslim doubts that the words exist as is in the Qur’an. The only difference is in the interpretation. There are many that believe this to be a direct mandate from Allah, obligatory to all Muslims. Many do not, conceding it was a historical reference only. People like Robert Spencer simply points out the source of the impetus that we see from the jihadists day in and out by THEIR OWN words and actions.

    For that, Spencer is baselessly labeled a racist and an Islamophobe.

    As is expected, Robert Spencer focuses on those examples which cast a negative light on Islam and he does nothing to balance his view to accentuate the good in Islam. The fair and equal balance argument against Spencer falls way short of the mark as well. It is akin to blaming the reporter of a rape for not also mentioning that the rapist was kind to his grandmother. Spencer lauds people that acknowledge the empirical factual arguments he presents and routinely asks for all challengers to disprove anything he has written.

    And Spencer, who is routinely charged with hating all Muslims or Islam in totality, has in actuality never uttered those phrases. I challenge all to try to prove me wrong on that statement.

    You will see true moderate Muslims, which do try to reform the spirit of Islam, without erasing or altering a divine passage from the Qur’an. M. Zuhdi Jasser comes to mind, at least primarily because he is still a Muslim and not an apostate from it.

    You will also see Muslim bloggers, like Tariq Nelson, who speaks out about the actions of jihadists and draws much praise from like-minded peaceful Muslims. However, he also receives death threats regularly and negative comments on his blog from Muslims who pray for Allah to punish him and for him being a heretic of Islam. These negative commentators are not the majority, but they are certainly not a tiny minority either.

    With the obvious duality in the Islamic community, why is it bigoted to discuss, quite possibly, the worst kept secret in the world?

  63. Eagle Says:

    What’s wrong Awake, you decide to come over here because salahudin won’t argue with you any more?? I am really sick of people like you who don’t read the blog, but want to argue with people on it, or the writer of it. If you have a problem with my blog then don’t come to it!! This blog isn’t about spencer, nor do I want it to be like spencer’s, who never has anything good to say. I don’t like that kind of attitude, it’s depressing. I have made my attitude, goal, and opinion crystal clear. So please head back over there with the rest of them, and leave my little corner of the internet alone.

  64. alexonhere Says:

    Hi Awake,

    I don’t have much time right now but I agree with you that extremists are no ‘tiny minority’ in Islam. Read my posts on the “hate” topic and you will see what I say about that.

    Actual killers, on the other hand, are I think a tiny minority of Muslims, but they are corseted by a much larger garment of extremism which is at least tolerated, if not explicitly supported, in the larger community. Yes some moderates do speak out against extremism, but as you say they risk serious consequences up to and including death for their efforts, especially if they dare to do so in a Muslim majority country.

    Most importantly of all though to me is the question:

    *Are the moderates winning or losing the fight for Islam?*

    I think any reasonable observer would agree that they are losing, at least for now. Perhaps they’re losing because so few of them are participating, or perhaps they’re losing because they are not as well supported by Islamic texts and traditions. I’m afraid it’s the latter though I wish it were the former. Wishful thinking, comforting as it can be, does nothing at all to improve the situation, so I don’t delude myself with it. And one can only reform what one admits openly is a problem.

    I agree that Robert Spencer is unfairly smeared as a hate-monger, bigot, racist, etc. It happens because he tells uncomfortable truths about the darker side of Islam. As you say he does focus on that darkness, but isn’t that darkness the problem? So he shines a bright light on the intolerant, violent, and downright murderous side of Islam. Of course a lot of people don’t like that so a lot of hatred is directed towards him. But the evidence used to ‘convict’ him comes from the barely moderated comments section of jihadwatch, not Robert’s own writings. In fact I quoted Robert Spencer directly from JihadWatch, in a post above, but without mentioning that it came from him:

    “I would like to see Muslims worldwide acknowledge the violent and supremacist aspects of their tradition, renounce them definitively, and work to formulate ways in which Muslims and non-Muslims can live together in peace as equals on an indefinite basis. Iโ€™d like to see ulama worldwide formulate new laws that establish the equality of dignity of women with men, abolish the commodification of women, and safeguard the equality of rights of all people by abolishing the dhimma Iโ€™d like to see ulama worldwide embrace the freedom of conscience and freedom of religion forthrightly and without equivocation.” — Robert Spencer

    Stefan agreed with the statement. Of course he didn’t know it came from Robert Spencer.

    To be fair, there are some haters there in the comments section of JW. I tried to explain where that hatred comes from in an above comment but still it doesn’t help the anti-jihadist cause in my opinion.

    Apparently a couple of the haters came over to Eagle’s blog here and started trashing him and his guests in a crude and thoughtless way. I don’t condone that and it certainly doesn’t help the anti-jihadist cause in my opinion. For example, on the hate topic I was posting on, I saw one poster pretending to be a black man, “Tyrone”. I suspected he was a fake and sure enough, after a few posts (fairly well-argued too) he signed off with the racist stereotype comment “Well I am off to play some hoops.” Hoops and watermelon, sure. That kind of junk doesn’t help anyone’s cause. That’s the kind of thing I sympathize with Eagle for having to put up with. Maybe Eagle made his own provocations and attacks too, I don’t know. I only skimmed those comments. But it’s his blog and I think he has the right to insist on a certain civility of exchange on his blog. That’s what I was saying.

  65. alexonhere Says:

    “I am really sick of people like you who donโ€™t read the blog, but want to argue with people on it” — Eagle

    Uh oh, I am somewhat guilty of this too. I came here originally to discuss constructively with Cerebate on the “hate” topic. then continued on in the same (civilized) way on another topic with another poster here.

    Ok Eagle, I’ll read more of what you have to say before posting any more. Point taken.

    Alexon

  66. Eagle Says:

    Alex,
    Thank you, as you can see, I didn’t close down any comment section as some blogs do. All I ask is for respect of other people’s point of view. I really am a little short tempered after the assault from JW, at times I am made to feel that I am not ‘allowed’ my opinion. Yes there are bad Muslims out there, which is what this blog started out as, and will go back too. But by the same token there are non-Muslims who have the same bad attitude as those ‘bad’ Muslims, ie, they can’t stand anyone who thinks differently than them.

    I want this blog to be well rounded. I want Muslims, to come and comment here. I want non-Muslims to know that all Muslims are not radical. It’s really that simple. Muslims think that non-Muslims are attacking them, they feel we are at war with Islam. YOu and I know that isn’t the case, but if no one ever has anything good to say about them, then what is to show them the truth??

  67. Eagle Says:

    BTW, when the whole JW attack came, brought by 1 person, I had over 600 people on this blog, with over 600-800 comments. From the stats, I could also see that no one was reading the blog.

    Funny thing, they are all gone now. So what was their purpose??

    Can you see why I am a bit touchy in regards to my blog and JW people?

  68. awake Says:

    Eagle,

    I am from JW and so is Alex. We are still here so what is your point?

    Additionally, I read all your posts that I comment on…all of them, as I do on Slalhudin’s blog.

    I disagree that the assertion that the problem in the Islamic community is such a tiny minority. I also disagree that it is not worth discussing based on the aforementioned assertion.

    What exactly was disrespectful about my previous comment here?

    Go look at Tariq Nelson’s blog and you will clearly see what I mean.

    As far as Salahudin goes, I responded to his claim that I was a “narrow-minded, right winger”. I hadn’t posted for weeks on his site and he was still baselessly attacking me.

    As far as the National Geographic article he linked as a supposed debunker to Spencer and Pipes, I read the whole thing and did some additional research on the subject. I posted a link to commentary from a Hindu paper. Go check it out.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: