More On Different Views Among Muslims Or The Case For Quran Only

More On The Differing Views Of Muslims magnify

  

I know we are in the middle of a series, but I am not prepared for my next post just yet.  I have been saving this one for a while now, even though I wanted to put it up some time ago.  As we have seen over this series there are many different views amongst Muslims.  Between Shia and Sunni, they don’t even have the same Hadiths, which in fact brings me to this post.  There are many questions to my Muslim friends and this post is primarily for them, but everyone should find it informative and interesting.     

This post is dedicated to at least two people whom I have the pleasure of calling friends.  As I have said many times, not every Muslim believes the same way.  There are some who believe in using only the Quran, and that is what this post is about.  I hope you will find it as fascinating as I did, whether you be Christian or Muslim.  I would ask Muslims to read and consider what they have to say, it makes a lot of sense.  

There is another group of Muslims who only look to the Quran called Rashadiites or those who believe in whatever  Rashad Khalifa has to say.  According to what I have been told, they base all their beliefs on what one mans ‘interpretation’ of the original Quran Arabic, and they even leave out some verses (at least that’s the way I understand it). Knowing some of their belief, even I, who doesn’t know much, think its a stretch.  You can read more about it/them here and here.  That is not what I am referring to here, not all Muslims who believe in using only the Quran are Rashadiites.

I will be giving you Stefan’s blog address later in this post, but first let me put in my two cents worth.  One of his most recent posts, was titled, “Critical Thinking A Right (and duty) Of All Muslims”.  I have to agree with him, as it is something that is taught in Christianity as well.  As I have stated before, you must study the scriptures for yourself, if you don’t and merely believe whatever is told to you; You could end up in some death cult like Jim Jones.  

We have gone over many things when talking about Islam and their prophecy.  One of the interesting things is that neither the Mahdi nor Dajjal is mentioned in the Quran, though Gog and Magog is.  We discussed Sufyaani, and when looking at that, it appears that the fight was going to be between Shia and Sunni’s.  My concern is those who want to rush what they see as prophecy, whether it is or not, be it Christian or Muslim.  Some Sunni’s believe that the Shiite Mahdi, is actually Dajjal.  Can you see where I am going here??

I have seen numerous Muslims attack Judaism and Christianity based on those religions placing higher value on their priest’s than on God.  But by the same token, I have seen that the other way around too.  Personally I think that when things get out of balance you need to get back to basics.  When you know that different sects believe differently only because of the Hadiths, well then I have some questions of my own, and I’m not even Muslim.  Did you know that there are Hadiths saying that Muhammad forbid people from writing down what he did??  I didn’t until recently.  What the Hadiths are, is basically that, the words and deeds of Muhammad’s life.

Among the books of hadith regarded as ‘Sahih’ (verified to be authentic), we read the following:

Abi Said Al-Khudary said that the prophet said : “Do not write down anything from me except the Quran.”

[Sahih Muslim Part 18, page 229, also Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171]

Abu huraira said that the prophet said, “The ‘Ummam’ (nations/peoples) that preceded you have gone astray when they wrote books and upheld them besides God’s scripture”.

(Ahmed Ibn Hanbal).

The same message is documented in other Islamic references of repute:

Abu Huraira said : The messenger of God came to us while we were writing his sayings and said: “What is it you are writing?” we said “sayings (hadith) we hear from you messenger of God” he said, “A book other than God’s book?” then Abu Huraira said, “so we gathered what we had written and burnt it all”.

(Taqyeed Al-Ilm, by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdady) also (Oloom Al-Hadith, by Ibn Salah).

I asked my friend about this and how so many can ignore it, when so many others follow nothing but the Hadiths.  His answer was this;

“according to most scholars and researchers, this hadith was specific to the time when the Qur’an was still being written. The reason behind this command was to prevent any risk of confusing the Qur’an with Hadith. However, once the revelation was completed and it was certain that no more verses were going to be descended, it was permissible; and even an obligation to write down the Hadith to preserve it throughout time, because, had the memorizers of the Hadith passed away before writing it down, the Hadiths could have disappeared.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#Controversy

Surah 6

The majority of those on Earth they will lead you (Muhammad) astray because they follow conjecture and what they have found their fathers doing!

“What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided ?”

“Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. (6:114)

And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. (6:115)

And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (6:116)

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=114
http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=115
http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=116

Those who have set up partners will Say: “If God wished, we would not have set up partners, nor would have our fathers, nor would we have forbidden anything.” Those before them lied in the same way, until they tasted Our might. Say: “Do you have any knowledge to bring out to us? You only follow conjecture, you only guess.” (6:148)

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=148

“No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.”

It seems to me that so many Muslims are following the footsteps of their fathers without understanding, they are no better than their forefathers and its true and normal according to the Quran to follow others rather than God.

And if they are told: “Follow what God has sent down,” they Say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!” What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided? (2:170)

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=170

And if they are told: “Follow that which God has sent down.” They Say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.” What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell? (31:21)

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=31&vid=21

two ??

What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

Another comment by Stefan my friend on my WordPress blog, you can see where he is answering someone elses questions;

You have to understand that the verses of the Quran were used to command Mohamed and the Believers all the time, I mean when its time of peace and when its time of war. Every verse of the Quran is related to a certain specific historical incident.

The Qur’an is claimed to be the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad. Are you denying this claim? Is the Qur’an more like the general gist of Allah? Are you not flirting with apostasy?

The Qur’an is the literal word(s) of Allah as passed to Muhammad

The Quran is a condensed non-abrogated balanced message, and at the same time its a poem, its not a 1 2 3 book and you have to read it carefully and in context.

Any verse abrogated or quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Quran.

http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/war-in-the-quran/

http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/10/21/not-a-single-verse-of-the-quran-is-abrogated/

http://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/abrogation-the-biggest-lie-against-quran/

but a lot of verses DO suit their purposes (the dehumanization and violence towards Non-believers, etc).

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.

It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Quran for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context.

These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

“How is that not supposed to reflect on the religion as a whole???”

Do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them __ Stefan

I will leave my other blogs address below so you can read more of his comments on that blog.  Also I want to encourage you to read the posts at the links he gave for pressthat.wordpress.com which is his blog.  You can find an article on that verse here the same article is also here.  In addition to that, the links for “openburhan”, are where you can find listed various translations of different verses in the Quran it is very informative. 

But I must say that if you read nothing else, or before you read any of the other blog entries of Stefan and Sukran on PressThat at wordpress,  Read thisIt is or rather shows different Hadiths that contradict the Quran.  Food for thought here, so bear with me… If I as a Christian, followed what the Bible said, and then some hundred years later or so, some book pops up that said, hey I was a disciple and Jesus said ‘this’; but that ‘this’, contradicted what I knew that the Bible said… who should I listen too??

It is my understanding that Muslims consider the Quran to be the actual word of God.  So why would it need, or should it need something else to complete it??  Do you get what I am saying here??  Please don’t misunderstand me, I am not trying to defame your religion.  Those of you who know me from my other blogs know that.  I am merely pointing out some interesting questions and asking for your opinion on it and pointing you towards something you may find challenging.  As challenging as I found it.  If you look at what he has to say, with an open mind, it makes sense.

On more comment and question.  I watched a video of a Preacher who met with and had a hour long interview with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.  (for those who don’t know, he would be the third highest behind the Mufti of Mecca and Medina)  During that interview the Preacher asked the Mufti if it was true that there is no compulsion in Islam.  The Mufti said it was true and they discussed it for a bit.  At this point the Preacher asked the Mufti, “If there is no compulsion in Islam, shouldn’t that apply to Muslims as well??”  Actually I think the way he put it was, “So it’s ok for Muslims to convert to Christianity?” It was one of those two comments, at any rate the Mufti was not amused at the comment and actually got angry.  I will find the video and put it up if you want to see it.  But my question is the same as his…

Shouldn’t what is written in the Quran apply to Muslims more than anyone??  And yet someone like my friend here would be considered an apostate because he believes in the Quran alone.  In Islam, changing your faith can be punished with prison or death, depending on the country you are in.  In some parts of the world, someone could come up and kill you for no other reason than you don’t believe the way they do.  Something is seriously wrong with that picture.  Why is it against the law??  Doesn’t the Quran also say that those “apostates”, will have their punishment in the after life??  So why make it a crime now??  And how can making it a crime be justified??  These aren’t rhetorical questions, I would really like an answer. 

In the West the only law we have concerning religion is that we are to be free to worship who we want and how we want, or not if that’s our wish.  Those of you who aren’t American, you do realize why America was formed??  Back in the day, those from England came to America to have freedom of religion.  The King or Queen of England was known as “The Keeper Of The Faith”, which was intertwined with the Catholic Church and then Protestant.  At the time there was no freedom of religion, wars were fought over whether the country would remain Catholic or change.  ((Historians, don’t jump on me, that was just a very small rough draft, to make a point .))  The point is, from the very beginning of America, the government was set up to keep separate religion and government so as to not have the problems that Mary Queen of Scots and Victoria were having in England, and there abouts.

Now that I’ve blathered on, , what is wrong with having freedom of religion, when even the Quran calls for it??     

As you can see, and I have said, Islam is as varied as Christianity, and at least some sects seem a bit ‘out there’, as do some of ours.  The person I have been speaking of is the one who wrote “Don’t blame the Jews” which I posted a little while ago.  I am interested in what our Muslim readers think about it.  Please comment and share your thoughts.  Please note that when going to “Pressthat” it always opens to “About Us”, but if you look on the sidebar you can find the most recent posts.

That was going to be my final thing for this post, because it is getting long, but I just had to add this last thing.  As I said, I will put my other blog address below, starting with where my friend started commenting so you can read his thoughts.  In the mean time, I have to put this last comment of his on here, since we are talking about apostates,  Hadiths and the Quran. Another thing I want to say, for all the calls for death for all who don’t believe like the Islamist…  I have had the pleasure to make friends of Muslims from all of the main sects in Islam.  We hear so many horrible things from people who claim to be Muslim, while they violate the Quran on a daily basis.  It is a wonderful thing when we have the tool you are on right now, to make friends of others from different religions and to discuss our religion, ask questions, answer questions, and all without trying to kill one another.  As long as we do that, there is always hope.  Ok time for the last comment (I promise)…  This answer is in regards to a question about the verse in the Bukhari which states; “Whoever changes their religion, kill them”.The Messenger of Allah SalAllahu alaihi wasallam said:
من بدّل دينه فاقتلوه
“Whoever changes his religion, kill him”. (Bukhari)

I believe that Islam can only be found in the Quran and the messenger’s job to deliver the message.

The teachings of the message delivered by the messenger doesn’t mention any punishments for the Apostate, because he is going to be the loser after all.

وَلاَ تَسُبُّواْ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ فَيَسُبُّواْ اللّهَ عَدْوًا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ كَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّهِم مَّرْجِعُهُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ

And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God without knowledge. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. 6:108

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=6&vid=108

وَإِذَا سَمِعُوا اللَّغْوَ أَعْرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَقَالُوا لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ لَا نَبْتَغِي الْجَاهِلِينَ

And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say: “To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant.” 28:55

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=28&vid=55

وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say: “We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender.” 29:46

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=29&vid=46

We believe that the message is the Truth and we must explain our point of view in a good manner and we have nothing to worry about from apostates but unfortunately the Bukharians who are using the name of Islam to kill anyone who disagree with their policies, exposing their man made religion is a fear for all of them, thats why they think that killing is the solution to avoid those who reject their teachings.

http://pressthat.wordpress.com/

https://eaglespearlsofwisdom.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/israel-prophecy-and-the-end-times-1/

There is an ongoing discussion here:

https://eaglespearlsofwisdom.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/the-women-with-mustaches-who-will-kill-the-mahdi-1/

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7 Responses to “More On Different Views Among Muslims Or The Case For Quran Only”

  1. Stefan Says:

    Eagle,

    I read your post over and over again, each time more pleased than the other. I think you have oversold me and I am utterly flattered.

    I must commend your eloquent and articulate manner by which you have explained the different topics.

    It is honestly a great pleasure that we have started this fruitful correspondance.

    Stefan

  2. Eagle Says:

    Stefan,

    The feeling is mutual. 🙂

    One of the things I’ve learned about you is that… It seems that no matter if someone attacks you or your religion you always are respectful back. Jesus said, “you shall know a man by his fruits” Matt. 7:16 Even though he was talking about being aware of false prophets, it is a lesson in picking your friends wisely.

    What we do on the internet, will be here for others to stumble upon. You and I may touch lives we have no clue of. Which is why we do what we do with such passion.

    The Bible list’s the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 which says; “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

    You have more Christian charity (love) in your heart than some of Christians themselves. It is my pleasure to call you a friend. And as always thank you for your continued help and support.

    Eagle 😀

  3. Sukran Says:

    Stefan and Eagle,

    I agree and I put my signature under both of yours words and statements above. Thank you.

    And I just want to comment on apostasy in Islam briefly.

    It is true that Qur’an do not allow to punish apostates in this world. God is the only authority to judge the apostates’ situation hereinafter, however, philosophy of freedom of faith in the Qur’an is not as same as indicated in United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights(1948), since Article 18 of the Declaration openly violates the Qur’anic principle on apostasy:

    “Article 18- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

    In this regard, according to my understanding, Qur’an, with a definite confident, is challenging to those who is thinking of to revert from Islam simply by not indicating any worldly punishment for this sin, similar to shirk. Apostasy is one of the three sins which Qur’an specifies CANNOT BE FORGIVEN under any circumstances: APOSTASY, MURDER and SHIRK.

    In sum, a Muslim, either born as a Muslim or accepts Islam later in her/his life simply CANNOT revert from Islam once he/she becomes a Muslim. It is understandable why apostasy is not forgivable, because even though once he/she was aware of the facts, truth and reality taught by Allah, then he/she CONSCIOUSLY and WILLINGLY denies them.

    And this is also why there must be no forceful conversion (or reversion) in Islam because its consequences and responsibility is heavy to carry especially for those who choose to be a Muslim later in their lives.

    Qur’an orders broad, but limited freedom of belief when it is compared with common understanding on ‘freedom of religion’ by excluding APOSTASY from this broad freedom without any doubt.

    Please do not be confused.

    May God bless all.

  4. Eagle Says:

    I am not confused Sukran, but I also stand by what I said. It is wrong for any country to force any religion or non religion on anyone. My walk with God, is my walk with God, it is a personal thing. We should all have the freedom to worship who we want without fear of worldly interference.

    Religion is about you and God. It’s when men try and ‘interpret’ what they ‘think’ God would want them to do, on behalf of others… is when things can get dicey. Especially when it is something as big as a government. Just look what the Taliban did. Even flying a kite was a crime. How was flying a kite, against Gods will??

    Some how, one of the most personal things in the whole world, our relationship with God, is being taken over, (or at least trying to), by a few people. Only God knows our hearts, only God can judge us. Trying to put the legal system in control of our hearts and minds in relation to God, makes no sense to me, nor would I accept it under any circumstance. Be it Christian or other wise.

    Thank you for the well wishes, and May God Bless you as well. 😀

  5. Eagle Says:

    When we meet God and have to answer for our life, we do it alone.

    You are Muslim, and believe strongly in what you believe. I am a Christian and believe just as strongly in what I believe. Personally I would die before I would give up my religion. Most people who are trully religious in what ever faith feel the same way. Since we will answer to God, and we know we will, how is that any other persons business.

    Does that make any sense to you?? I’m not sure that I am wording what I am trying to say right. 😐

    The bottom line is, the afterlife is eternal, it should be up to the person to decide what he wants to do with that knowledge. All the laws in the world will not change a persons heart, they will do what they want regardless. So in effect, they only make the people who enact and inforce those kinds of laws look tyrannical. 😦

  6. Sukran Says:

    Please do not take me wrong, Eagle. I am not saying it is right to force people for something. My concern is there is a misunderstanding among ‘liberal’ Muslims that apostasy is permissible in the Qur’an. No, it isnot. They sounds like they do not believe hereinafter life at all.

    I just wanted to share my understanding on difference between the common philosophy of freedom of religion and Qur’anic freedom of religion. I cannot say lie or ignore what it is said in the Qur’an, and I do not agree that it is tyrannical.

    Yes, I mean no, an apostate cannot be punished by other people, never ever, but my point is, apostasy is one of the biggest challanges against God, a Muslim can ever attempt.

    Please smile, I am not a tyran. 🙂

  7. Eagle Says:

    I know you aren’t 😀 obviously I’m not very good at getting my opinion down right. The point is, no matter what law man may put on the books, imprisoning or killing someone for what they perceive is apostasy; It won’t change the heart of the person.


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